music theory/musical cliches/formula/tips etc

[tee boy]

On a similar note, its cool to use modes of scales other than the major. For example, in his Op 23 No 5 prelude, Rachmaninov uses the G Harmonic Minor scale for the 'A' section. But at the 'B' section he changes (not modulates) to a mode of this scale (the 3rd I think). This scales is actually called the Harmonic Major Inverse, though in this piece its clearly a mode of the home key.

I think it sounds beautiful aswell, and has a certain tension that never properly resolves.

TB

[strav100]

I'm not sure what styles of music prople are writing on this forum - it seems to be a whole mix of styles ?

As regards scales - I sometimes just make them up - they may be the same as some obscure scale that has a name -- that's if I delibrately choose to write a melody from such an artifical scale - but I just can't be bothered to learn all the damn names

I have studied Messian's compositional technique from his 2 written volumes (1 music / 1 text - cost a bloody fortune!) - some interesting ideas - perhaps rather over-rated but essential for student analyzing Messian scores.

I think a composer, in order to have his own style, has to develop his own 'theory' of compositional technique. Most composers will not let anyone know their secrets!!!.

As regards embellishing notes in harmonic progressions, as in my earlier post, these would enrichen the voice 'streams' in the progressions i.e if you were writing 4-part harmony, then it would be 4 melodic lines AND/OR extra notes eg 9/11/13 etc. added to the chords (perhaps as extra occasional voices)

[intothedawn]

OK back on topic

Some of the most fascinating scale structures you can work with are among Messiaen's modes of limited transposition. These are scales that are symmetrical within the octave.

Most of the scales in common use (including all of those mentioned so far in this thread) are NOT symmetrical within the octave. This is because they are based on the circle of fifths. And fifths (and obviously their inversions: fourths) are made up of 7 (5) half steps, and the octave has 12 half steps, which is not evenly divisible by 7.

But if you look at the intervals that are factors of 12, you will see a number of possibilities:

2 divides evenly into twelve, giving the whole tone scale (c,d,e,f#,g#,a#,C)
3 divides evenly into twelve, giving a diminished seventh chord (c,d#,f#,a) if you combine this with the diminished 7th chord one half step up (c#,e,g,a#) you get the diminished scale
4 divides evenly into twelve, giving an augmented triad (c,e,g#), which when combined with the augmented triad a half step up (c#,f,a) gives a delightful scale of six notes without a common name, but which is very common in a great deal of 'modern' music, It sounds vaguely eastern to many, though it is totally artificial and western in origin.

Must go, I will return to this when time permits.

Oh, and I too am married. To a lovely woman 15 years my junior.

So there.

it might be fun to write a track useing one of these symetrical scales.

how different would these scales be from say combining any two randomly selected triads and makeing a scale out of them?

[tee boy]

Im not 'up' on Messian's theories. I read about them briefly but not enough to comment.

However, I can say with some confidence that his methods of scale constructions cant be compared easily to an aleatoric process like the one you describe. The our come of the random process will likely be different every time. One might be close to a Messian style scale, the other vastly different.

But Im sure Herodotus can explaim more on this than I can.

TB

[nuffink]

For anyone interested in this kind of geekery I can recommend iBreatheMusic. Nowhere near as much knockabout fun as kvr, obviously, but full of interesting stuff for theory twonks.

[Jafo]

For anyone interested in this kind of geekery I can recommend iBreatheMusic. Nowhere near as much knockabout fun as kvr, obviously, but full of interesting stuff for theory twonks.

Nice! Thanks for the link.

[herodotus]

it might be fun to write a track useing one of these symetrical scales.

how different would these scales be from say combining any two randomly selected triads and makeing a scale out of them?

Well the nature of these symmetrical scales is such that there are only so many of them. 12 only has four factors (2,3,4,6) and so the scalic formulae are limited by that.

Taking two chords at random might very well result in something interesting and usable, but it would lack the 'limited transposablity' that gives these scales much of their charm.

For instance, there are only 2 whole tone scales: c,d,e,f#,g#,a#,C and c#,d#,f,g,a,C# every other transposition will have the exact same pitch content as these two. And because these scales, being symmetrical, have no natural tonal center, there is essentially no difference between, say, the whole tone scale starting on 'c' and the one starting on 'd'.

All of these modes have the same quality: The diminished scale has only three different transpositions, the aforementioned six note scale has only 4.

If you are just dying to hear these scales at work you can hear a couple of my poor efforts employing the six note scale here: http://www.realmusicmedia.com/dance_aga ... rhythm.mp3

http://www.realmusicmedia.com/a_fearful_symmetry.mp3

A good introductory book for this stuff is this one

[Jafo]

You could also do repeated fretting patterns on a guitar neck, like Eddie Van Halen (following the lead of Alan Holdsworth) sometimes does.


|*|*|-|*|
|*|*|-|*|
|*|*|-|*|
|*|*|-|*|
|*|*|-|*|
|*|*|-|*|

|*|-|*|*|
|*|-|*|*|
|*|-|*|*|
|*|-|*|*|
|*|-|*|*|
|*|-|*|*|

and so forth. Gets some pretty fscked-up tones when you add the right amount of modulation and echo.

[tee boy]

Or maybe try a 'Satch-Harmonic-Minor-Phyrgian-Dominant'

TB

[djdorian]

Hi. I have an intermediate understanding of music theory; I comprehend the basics and beyond when it comes to modulation, but still want to move to the next level of understanding.

I also have an ecclectic preference and really enjoy many Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic styles, as well as many Modern syles (especially Jazz.)

In fact, I'm writing a song right now that may end up becoming a cross between baroque-esque sounding pipe-organ music, pop, and/or blues. (Think of "Rain" by Yoko Kanno, but slightly more organ focused and complex.)

Now, I'm quite aware that the overwhelming majority of modulations I've heard and read about in music theory study do 1 of 3 things, as follows below:

*********************************************************************

To prevent confusion, I will use "Major" and "minor" to refer to the "Ionian" and "Aeolian" scales, respectively.

#1. Use the same SCALE TYPE, but on differing keys.
(Ex: C Major to G Major, or A minor to D minor, etc.)

#2. Use the same KEY, but differing SCALE TYPES.
(Ex: C Major to C minor, D Dorian to D Major, etc.)

#3. Switch to a MODE of the orginal key.
(Ex: C Major to E Phrygian, or C Major to G Mixolydian, etc.)

*********************************************************************

But I've heard songs that change to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously during the modulation.
(Ex: C Major to G Dorian, or A minor to D Major, etc.)

This usually only happens in more complex music. I can think of a few Jazz and Baroque songs that use this method, although I can't think of their names off the top of my head. (But I will search in order to find the names of the songs, and post them here when I get the chance.)

My questions is: How do I know when changing to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously will "work" on a musical basis?

(There is little-to-no info that I can find using seach engines, regardless of how much search term creativity I use.)

[Ildon]

My questions is: How do I know when changing to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously will "work" on a musical basis?

If it sounds good, do it. That's the Naoto Tanaka way. You generally want to make sure the changes are connected in some way and no one can really teach you what sounds good to you and what doesn't.

I have a song that jumps from D minor to F minor. F is part of the D minor chord and they're both minor scales. See? They're connected in some way.

Of course, also the WAY you do it (ease the listener into the changes) helps a lot.

[djdorian]

F minor and D minor are the same scale types.

But my questions was how to know when (according to some formal theory, preferably, even if it isn't "classical" music theory) I can change to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously during the modulation?

[jPod]

Hi. I have an intermediate understanding of music theory; I comprehend the basics and beyond when it comes to modulation, but still want to move to the next level of understanding.

Two books I can't reccomend highly enough for the harmonically curious are: A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody by David Leibman, and Twentieth-Century Harmony: Creative Aspects and Practice by Vincent Persichetti.

My questions is: How do I know when changing to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously will "work" on a musical basis?

(There is little-to-no info that I can find using seach engines, regardless of how much search term creativity I use.)

What you're describing is modal harmony as personified on Miles Davis's Kind of Blue. Any decent jazz harmony book should be able to give you some examples and guidelines to get you started.

One easy way to "earball it" is to look at how notes they have in common -- the more common notes, the more "related" they will sound. At a practical level though, a little experimentation, experience and your own aestheics are probably the best guide.

[Ildon]

F minor and D minor are the same scale types.

But my questions was how to know when (according to some formal theory, preferably, even if it isn't "classical" music theory) I can change to different SCALE TYPES -and- KEYS simultaneously during the modulation?

Ah, misunderstood you then. But most of what I said still applies here. Make sure it's connected somehow and just do what sounds good to you.

Basically exactly what jPod said.

[Jafo]

If it sounds good, do it.

+1,000,000

Theory is equivalent to buying lots of lottery tickets -- it increases the chance of finding something that sounds good, but can not guarrantee it.