i know enough theory to write some chords a melody and a bassline, sometimes it sounds ok sometimes it sounds plain boring or emotionless, i was hopeing to start a tips thread that might be useful for people in the same boat.
I've started taking notes on some tracks I like and jotting down progressions interms of the bass riseing melody falling etc whether its parallel oblique or contrary and then doing my own track based on these restrictions.
In a lot of music I seem to hear the same techniques like when i sit down to watch film or listen to a trance/prog house track, most new guitar music on tv sounds the same etc. I'd like to understand why. what are the cliches? musically anything you know might help like the twelve bar blues is that like a verse for 8 and a chorus for 4 how does the flat five bassline thing work.
empty your musical toolbox here
music theory/musical cliches/formula/tips etc
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
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- KVRAF
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
I'm confused. Is your goal to create good music or to learn music theory?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
both really, just say a guy sit down to write a soundtrack and decides he wan'ts it to evoke a vibe similar to the the one in the movie predator, he probobly goes to the section in his musical toolbox named otherworldly/thrilling or something
is there something you've learned for instance that should be avoided 99 percent of the time you know what do you know?
is there something you've learned for instance that should be avoided 99 percent of the time you know what do you know?
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
http://www.moneychords.com/
this may be the best over simplified presentation of the oversimplified 'cliches' you're looking for
click the link on the top of the left for chord progressions
after digesting this a while then you need a few pages of reharmonizing through backcycling and tritone substitutions, suspensions and phrygian chord forms
really it's only about 10 pages of condensed material available in most jazz or modern theory books. takes a while to let it sink in
this may be the best over simplified presentation of the oversimplified 'cliches' you're looking for
click the link on the top of the left for chord progressions
after digesting this a while then you need a few pages of reharmonizing through backcycling and tritone substitutions, suspensions and phrygian chord forms
really it's only about 10 pages of condensed material available in most jazz or modern theory books. takes a while to let it sink in
Last edited by wrench45us on Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 12583 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
"i know enough theory to write some chords a melody and a bassline"
you could also simply pull stuff out of your ass. it doesnt usually work, but i think nearly all of the best music of all time has come from the ass of a very few specially talented people.
and you KNOW i'm not refering to flatulence, i'm just using the ass as a metaphor for a dark and mysterious place, like that part of our minds where we hold the sum of all our experiance and emotions.
sure i could have said that up front, but ass works well. perhaps it is because you're trying too hard to follow the rules that some of your music is bland? i've never created a bland sounding melody other than when i've tried to create the melody based purely upon theory.
you can follow the theory, but afterward try to find the notes which are in the 'right', yet so very 'wrong' places, and move them. that is where the bland comes from. you can work on the same progression multiple times and get different results based upon how you feel, because when you move notes into the 'right' positon, you're usually adjusting them based entirerly upon how well they reflect your emotional state.
take a bland melody and just start moving notes around, computer sequencers are perfect for this.
if you feel bland, the melody will remain bland as well, i think. try to think of something emotional before you start composing, or alternatively only compose after an emotional experiance.
you could also simply pull stuff out of your ass. it doesnt usually work, but i think nearly all of the best music of all time has come from the ass of a very few specially talented people.
and you KNOW i'm not refering to flatulence, i'm just using the ass as a metaphor for a dark and mysterious place, like that part of our minds where we hold the sum of all our experiance and emotions.
sure i could have said that up front, but ass works well. perhaps it is because you're trying too hard to follow the rules that some of your music is bland? i've never created a bland sounding melody other than when i've tried to create the melody based purely upon theory.
you can follow the theory, but afterward try to find the notes which are in the 'right', yet so very 'wrong' places, and move them. that is where the bland comes from. you can work on the same progression multiple times and get different results based upon how you feel, because when you move notes into the 'right' positon, you're usually adjusting them based entirerly upon how well they reflect your emotional state.
take a bland melody and just start moving notes around, computer sequencers are perfect for this.
if you feel bland, the melody will remain bland as well, i think. try to think of something emotional before you start composing, or alternatively only compose after an emotional experiance.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
cheers acidose interesting advice, from my own experience I think it's quite an easy trap to fall into when you draw everything into a sequencer, and I think your right a lot of the time rhythmically the notes are in the wrong place and instead of changeing that aspec i change the pitch.
The thoery im most interested in is more along the lines of - why does a certain teqnique sound subjectively good, what mould is it breaking out of etc
The thoery im most interested in is more along the lines of - why does a certain teqnique sound subjectively good, what mould is it breaking out of etc
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
thanks wrench this looks like a really great site, i'm a bit confused as i don't read guitarwrench45us wrote:http://www.moneychords.com/
this may be the best over simplified presentation of the oversimplified 'cliches' you're looking for
click the link on the top of the left for chord progressions
after digesting this a while then you need a few pages of reharmonizing through backcycling and tritone substitutions, suspensions and phrygian chord forms
really it's only about 10 pages of condensed material available in most jazz or modern theory books. takes a while to let it sink in
do the the slashes here signify emty bars with no chord change(these are taken from the chapter on ascending basslines
C / Dm / Em / F / G / / / / / / /
C / C#o7 / Dm7 / D#o7 / C/E / E7#5 / F6 / Fm6 /
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215 Productions 215 Productions https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=113838
- KVRer
- 22 posts since 21 Jul, 2006
Into...
When you speak of theory there are different ways to approach it of course, traditionally or not. In my opinion, too often folk foregt the basics, the I, IV, V. Gets boring though right? I would suggest checking out chord substitutions. It depends a lot on the melody and the mood you want. Start throwing in a ii chord (minor) where the IV chord goes. Then, add a 7th over it, add a 9th, just experiment until you hear what you want. Sometimes, taking away a note can create that as well. Remove the 3rd of the chord and you get a very block sound, is it minor, is it major? We hear it all the time in most modern rock out there, those so-called power chords. It all depends on what you want to create. For example, I find that most of what I write has a maj7th feel too it. Gets boring after a while yeah, so I just start to throw in or take out notes. Experiment with voicing the chords differently. Make them open, squash them together. Harmonics kick in and the same chord, in theory, can sound very different. I have a music/theory background and yeah I know theory like the back of my hand, but that's according to traditional lessons we are taught in books. If really serious about it, study Bach's Chorales. Sound crazy? Not too far fetched. He utilized every possible theory practice, changing keys, modulating, without the ears even knowing it. Go with what your ears are telling you, all a while keeping the basics in mind. The rest will follow and you will be amazed what you can come up with. Works for those selling millions of records these days and they aren't doing anything differently. Just all about the feel, the hook. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish, to communicate. But, these are just my thoughts.
When you speak of theory there are different ways to approach it of course, traditionally or not. In my opinion, too often folk foregt the basics, the I, IV, V. Gets boring though right? I would suggest checking out chord substitutions. It depends a lot on the melody and the mood you want. Start throwing in a ii chord (minor) where the IV chord goes. Then, add a 7th over it, add a 9th, just experiment until you hear what you want. Sometimes, taking away a note can create that as well. Remove the 3rd of the chord and you get a very block sound, is it minor, is it major? We hear it all the time in most modern rock out there, those so-called power chords. It all depends on what you want to create. For example, I find that most of what I write has a maj7th feel too it. Gets boring after a while yeah, so I just start to throw in or take out notes. Experiment with voicing the chords differently. Make them open, squash them together. Harmonics kick in and the same chord, in theory, can sound very different. I have a music/theory background and yeah I know theory like the back of my hand, but that's according to traditional lessons we are taught in books. If really serious about it, study Bach's Chorales. Sound crazy? Not too far fetched. He utilized every possible theory practice, changing keys, modulating, without the ears even knowing it. Go with what your ears are telling you, all a while keeping the basics in mind. The rest will follow and you will be amazed what you can come up with. Works for those selling millions of records these days and they aren't doing anything differently. Just all about the feel, the hook. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish, to communicate. But, these are just my thoughts.
Last edited by 215 Productions on Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brian McGovern
215 Productions
Washington D.C. | Arlington, Virginia
215 Productions
Washington D.C. | Arlington, Virginia
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- KVRAF
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
There are many cliches in the way the percussion is composed too, not just chord progressions, but why limit yourself to chord progression cliches? There's cliches within a chord progression such as changing a chord every 4 beats.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
good adviceArchiteuthis wrote:There are many cliches in the way the percussion is composed too, not just chord progressions, but why limit yourself to chord progression cliches? There's cliches within a chord progression such as changing a chord every 4 beats.
Im not saying cliches are bad i just think the more of them you know the more you will be able to write music like a kid who's mastered a never ending video game
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
the slash means the preceding chord is repeateddo the the slashes here signify emty bars with no chord change(these are taken from the chapter on ascending basslines
C / Dm / Em / F / G / / / / / / /
so
C C Dm Dm Em Em F F G G G G G G G G
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215 Productions 215 Productions https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=113838
- KVRer
- 22 posts since 21 Jul, 2006
Nothing more cliche than the I-IV-V progression. If you want to understand the different modes, consider this.
Consider the key signature of C (or it's relative minor Am,) no sharps and no flats. If you start and end your scale on D (ii) that is Dorian mode, start and stop on E (iii) that is Phyrgian, start and stop on F (IV) Lydian and start and stop on G (V) Mixolydian. Without getting into the definitions, that is an easy way to understand those modes. Even more basic, is the minor, natural and harmonic. The basic minor, staying in the key signature of C, starts and stops on A (vi) and is known as Aeolian. If you have your circle of fifths down, you will be able to understand and play these in any key.
Consider the key signature of C (or it's relative minor Am,) no sharps and no flats. If you start and end your scale on D (ii) that is Dorian mode, start and stop on E (iii) that is Phyrgian, start and stop on F (IV) Lydian and start and stop on G (V) Mixolydian. Without getting into the definitions, that is an easy way to understand those modes. Even more basic, is the minor, natural and harmonic. The basic minor, staying in the key signature of C, starts and stops on A (vi) and is known as Aeolian. If you have your circle of fifths down, you will be able to understand and play these in any key.
Brian McGovern
215 Productions
Washington D.C. | Arlington, Virginia
215 Productions
Washington D.C. | Arlington, Virginia
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- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Hmmmm... I thought the slash (in this context) represented a barline. The % symbol means that the preceding chord is repeated.wrench45us wrote:the slash means the preceding chord is repeateddo the the slashes here signify emty bars with no chord change(these are taken from the chapter on ascending basslines
C / Dm / Em / F / G / / / / / / /
so
C C Dm Dm Em Em F F G G G G G G G G
This is why I write my barlines as "|" rather than "/", so that way if you have a chord like Cmaj7/D it's not going to get confusing.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 41 posts since 27 Jun, 2006
so for an Am chord aeolian ionian and phyrigian would be the best modes for that chord? If this is correct Would the other modes always imply a different tonality played over and Am chord unless they were kind of mixed with aeol ion phyrig as a kind of suggestion before resolution?215 Productions wrote:Nothing more cliche than the I-IV-V progression. If you want to understand the different modes, consider this.
Consider the key signature of C (or it's relative minor Am,) no sharps and no flats. If you start and end your scale on D (ii) that is Dorian mode, start and stop on E (iii) that is Phyrgian, start and stop on F (IV) Lydian and start and stop on G (V) Mixolydian. Without getting into the definitions, that is an easy way to understand those modes. Even more basic, is the minor, natural and harmonic. The basic minor, staying in the key signature of C, starts and stops on A (vi) and is known as Aeolian. If you have your circle of fifths down, you will be able to understand and play these in any key.
also i've noticed on virtual piano chords http://www.allsang.net/java_linkside/to ... hords.html
A,C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,A#
A aeolian mode has 8 different notes but the others have only 7(one repeating an octave above. has this got something to do with the harmonic and melodic minor scales?
