I am relatively new to jazz theory, but I am trying to do this arrangement. I have 2 questions:
Do you put #9's and flat 13's on minor chords that come before dominant chords?
and, do flat 5's go on dominant subs?
Thanks,
Jazz theory question: #9, b13, b5...
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- KVRer
- 2 posts since 14 Jul, 2004
Hey there!
It's been my experience that jazz theory makes allowances for most anything you find acceptable. That said...
The #9 in a minor chord is the 3rd (ie, Dmin7 #9 would have an 'f' and an 'e#'; enharmonically the same).
Flat 13's occur naturally in the aeolian/natural minor scale - that's why they get used sometimes. Generically speaking, I've seen #9's and flat 13's more commonly tacked onto dominant chords.
I've shoved Flat 5's onto dominant chords, substitutions or not. Sometimes they're referred to as #11 depending on where it resolves to (up or down).
The bottom line is to be aware of what key/mode is being implied by your harmony and the direction you will resolve them. This can become vague if you are only adding extensions for colors-sake.
A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
I'm by no means a master theorist and I anticipate you'll get a variety of views on your question. Please let me know if anything is unclear and please correct me if I'm wrong.
PAX,
Zach...
It's been my experience that jazz theory makes allowances for most anything you find acceptable. That said...
The #9 in a minor chord is the 3rd (ie, Dmin7 #9 would have an 'f' and an 'e#'; enharmonically the same).
Flat 13's occur naturally in the aeolian/natural minor scale - that's why they get used sometimes. Generically speaking, I've seen #9's and flat 13's more commonly tacked onto dominant chords.
I've shoved Flat 5's onto dominant chords, substitutions or not. Sometimes they're referred to as #11 depending on where it resolves to (up or down).
The bottom line is to be aware of what key/mode is being implied by your harmony and the direction you will resolve them. This can become vague if you are only adding extensions for colors-sake.
A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
I'm by no means a master theorist and I anticipate you'll get a variety of views on your question. Please let me know if anything is unclear and please correct me if I'm wrong.
PAX,
Zach...
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- KVRist
- 127 posts since 11 Jul, 2004 from Hong Kong
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1244 posts since 21 Nov, 2003 from San Francisco
Wow! Thats a lot clearer! Thanks 
So I'm in the key of D minor, the original progression was just 4 bars of D9,
I Changed it to:
D9 | F-7 Bb-7 | E-7 A7 | D9
But this would be appropriate?
D9 | F-7b5 Bb-7 | E-7b5 A7#9 b13 | D9
So I'm in the key of D minor, the original progression was just 4 bars of D9,
I Changed it to:
D9 | F-7 Bb-7 | E-7 A7 | D9
But this would be appropriate?
D9 | F-7b5 Bb-7 | E-7b5 A7#9 b13 | D9
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- KVRer
- 14 posts since 26 Jan, 2004 from UK
Any ideas where to get this book from? Sounds really useful.zfisherdrums wrote:A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
Emma
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- KVRAF
- 13109 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
The #9 thing has allready been mentioned - enharmonically it's just the same as the minor 3rd.
As far as b13s go, very often I find them to make the chord unclear (unless used as a passing note).
Example: If you have an Amin(7) and put an F on top (which would be the b13), it might very often sound like an Fmaj(9) with the 3rd in the bass. Most likely because the 5th (E) is such a strong chord note and the F would probably clash a bit against it, resulting in another sound character.
As far as b5s in dominant substitutes go: If you replace, say, a E7alt (b/#9, b/#5) with the "regular" tritone substitute, which would be a Bb7, the b5 would rather be called a #11, in case you're following the same scale - simply because the scale would contain both the E (#11) and the F (5).
As far as b13s go, very often I find them to make the chord unclear (unless used as a passing note).
Example: If you have an Amin(7) and put an F on top (which would be the b13), it might very often sound like an Fmaj(9) with the 3rd in the bass. Most likely because the 5th (E) is such a strong chord note and the F would probably clash a bit against it, resulting in another sound character.
As far as b5s in dominant substitutes go: If you replace, say, a E7alt (b/#9, b/#5) with the "regular" tritone substitute, which would be a Bb7, the b5 would rather be called a #11, in case you're following the same scale - simply because the scale would contain both the E (#11) and the F (5).
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRer
- 2 posts since 14 Jul, 2004
AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... ds2Pid=946 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=jazz%20piano%20book&userid=v12xHZeA5M&cds2Pid=946)Pootle wrote:Any ideas where to get this book from? Sounds really useful.zfisherdrums wrote:A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
Emma
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- KVRist
- 308 posts since 11 Feb, 2004 from Sydney
Yep, that book (by Mark Levine by the way) is absolutely tops. It's explanations of modes, voicings, block chords... are really logical.zfisherdrums wrote:http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... ds2Pid=946Pootle wrote:Any ideas where to get this book from? Sounds really useful.zfisherdrums wrote:A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
Emma
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gambaytheunspoken gambaytheunspoken https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=23603
- KVRist
- 309 posts since 1 May, 2004
As it relates to jazz, that's a strange question. Jazz music is about freedom. If it sounds right and it swings, then you've done your duty. What zfisher said is pretty much on the money, except one can argue about the question of resolution. Sometimes nothing gets resolved because that is just the nature of the composition, and sometimes it works beautifully as in Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage." Eg. D7sus F7sus Eb7sus Db7sus F7sus. That's the progression of the entire piece. Resolution? The melody.
Ciao
Ciao
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- KVRer
- 14 posts since 26 Jan, 2004 from UK
Thanks - I was looking for a book by Dick Hyman which explains why I couldn't find it...zfisherdrums wrote:http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... ds2Pid=946Pootle wrote:Any ideas where to get this book from? Sounds really useful.zfisherdrums wrote:A great resource for theory, voicings, etc. is "The Jazz Piano Book" by Dick Hyman.
Emma
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- KVRian
- 682 posts since 22 Dec, 2004 from norway
You can do pretty much what you cant to do with 9ths and 13ths. Its the 11 you have to watch out for:
Minor=11
Major=#11
This is because the overtones must be right. Trust me, i have learnt it from the jazz-conservatory in Norway.
About the chord changes:
D9 | F-7 Bb-7 | E-7 A7 | D9
But this would be appropriate?
D9 | F-7b5 Bb-7 | E-7b5 A7#9 b13 | D9
It is ok. In this:
E-7b5 A7#9(b13) A jazz player would keep the b5 in the fist chord let it be b9 in the second.
Also b13 is the tone F , which also is the #5. It would be more correct to label it #5 as b13 indicates that both the F(b13) and E(fifth) is going to be played. Leave out the fifth and play it as #5, Then you have a standard Bill Evans voicing.
gunnare
Minor=11
Major=#11
This is because the overtones must be right. Trust me, i have learnt it from the jazz-conservatory in Norway.
About the chord changes:
D9 | F-7 Bb-7 | E-7 A7 | D9
But this would be appropriate?
D9 | F-7b5 Bb-7 | E-7b5 A7#9 b13 | D9
It is ok. In this:
E-7b5 A7#9(b13) A jazz player would keep the b5 in the fist chord let it be b9 in the second.
Also b13 is the tone F , which also is the #5. It would be more correct to label it #5 as b13 indicates that both the F(b13) and E(fifth) is going to be played. Leave out the fifth and play it as #5, Then you have a standard Bill Evans voicing.
gunnare
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
In Jazz music, if it sounds right then it is right! Not every note has to be justified as it does in Western classical styles. The important thing is that phrases resolve as you'd like. What goes on in between is down to the imagination of the performer.
If i may add a little more advice - dont get to strung up about chord notation with jazz. It can definately confuse matters and really doesnt describe the music adequately imo. Jazz is all about the improv around a riff, so playing way out phrases and making it work is the order of the day. Making them work on paper is definately not!
But if studying the theoretical side of this music appeals to you, then familiarising yourself with the standard literature is a good start. By learning the standards and noting the typical progressions, you can get a good idea of what works and what doesnt.
If i may add a little more advice - dont get to strung up about chord notation with jazz. It can definately confuse matters and really doesnt describe the music adequately imo. Jazz is all about the improv around a riff, so playing way out phrases and making it work is the order of the day. Making them work on paper is definately not!
But if studying the theoretical side of this music appeals to you, then familiarising yourself with the standard literature is a good start. By learning the standards and noting the typical progressions, you can get a good idea of what works and what doesnt.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
If we allow that a chord has between three and seven notes in it (which is a reasonable allowance for western music)...
There are 3,223 possible chords and 3,991,680 possible voicings.
If we allow all 12 notes to the scale...
There are 4,017 possible chords and 479,001,600 possible voicings.
If my maths is right.
Theory gives us a map of some of the possible routes through this complexity.
There are those who think that a bit of theory will somehow limit their exploration of this territory. Strangely they always seem to be on the main highways themselves. It's the f**kers who know a bit of theory who are out exploring the uncharted waters.
There are 3,223 possible chords and 3,991,680 possible voicings.
If we allow all 12 notes to the scale...
There are 4,017 possible chords and 479,001,600 possible voicings.
If my maths is right.
Theory gives us a map of some of the possible routes through this complexity.
There are those who think that a bit of theory will somehow limit their exploration of this territory. Strangely they always seem to be on the main highways themselves. It's the f**kers who know a bit of theory who are out exploring the uncharted waters.
