The Truth Behind Amp Modelers
-
- KVRAF
- 2955 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
I think he is correct. The amp modellers have arrived and we are spoiled for choice which can interfere with productivity and creativity. I had someone in the studio who vehemently wanted to use their $3000 bass amp and told me no software could replace it. He was paying part of the tab so I went along with it. I split the signal so I had a direct as well as his mic'd cabinet Part way through the session I swapped in a bass amp plug-in,dialed in the sound that worked for the track and toggled it on and off. He had to agree that the tone I dialed in was a good fit for the track. When I started to play with the virtual control room and move the mics around and change the cabinet models he couldn't believe it. He is a good player with lots of experience. I could have done it with Amplitube, Guitar Rig, Pod Farm or the virtual amps in my DAW. I have my preferences but I won't by buying any new modellers for the time being. Time to make some music.
-
- KVRAF
- 3959 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).
He's absolutely right... We all know that's the answer on some level, but we (or a lot of people) just have total gear lust. I've been victim of this myself. But I'm trying to reign myself in now days... not an easy thing to do.
And I also agree that the market is super saturated.
And I also agree that the market is super saturated.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too.
- KVRian
- 541 posts since 15 Jun, 2011 from Betwixt or between
Yep- it's a lot like the "tonewood" woo; nonsense designed for the sheer reason of profiting from consumer ignorance.
Having played guitar and bass for longer than being involved with "in the box" production, I know how obsessed with tone and gear players can be (and how hard some myths concerning said tone and gear are to dispel); granted, an instrument made of Lucite or aluminum will sound different than one made of maple, but there's only so many variables that go into how an instrument sounds.
Regardless, people will still obsess over what the best hand-wound pickups are, claim to hear a difference between NOS GE triple mica vs. NOS JAN Tung Sol 6072a/12AY7's, etc, etc... and will still happily pay out of their noses for such imagined differences.
Same with amp modeling.
Having played guitar and bass for longer than being involved with "in the box" production, I know how obsessed with tone and gear players can be (and how hard some myths concerning said tone and gear are to dispel); granted, an instrument made of Lucite or aluminum will sound different than one made of maple, but there's only so many variables that go into how an instrument sounds.
Regardless, people will still obsess over what the best hand-wound pickups are, claim to hear a difference between NOS GE triple mica vs. NOS JAN Tung Sol 6072a/12AY7's, etc, etc... and will still happily pay out of their noses for such imagined differences.
Same with amp modeling.
Music can no longer soothe the worried thoughts of monarchs; it can only tell you when it's time to buy margarine or copulate. -xoxos
Discontinue use if rash or irritation develops.
Discontinue use if rash or irritation develops.
- KVRAF
- 18600 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA
All the in the box amp modelers sound like crap to me so yea that kills creativity.
(No I'm not a hardware tube amp snob.....don't even own one anymore).
I don't care one bit what anything "sounds like" I only care if it sounds good (to me).
(No I'm not a hardware tube amp snob.....don't even own one anymore).
I don't care one bit what anything "sounds like" I only care if it sounds good (to me).
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
-
- KVRAF
- 3959 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).
From playing quite a few now I always feel they lack a little something. I personally use an Orange Dark Terror. I like it a lot...Teksonik wrote:All the in the box amp modelers sound like crap to me so yea that kills creativity.
(No I'm not a hardware tube amp snob.....don't even own one anymore).
I don't care one bit what anything "sounds like" I only care if it sounds good (to me).
But I've heard my mates get brilliant sounds with impulses. So I'm the same, as long as it sounds good that's all that counts, no matter what you use. Plus the majority of punters don't care, it's all about the music for them.
I will take the Lord's name in vain, whenever I want. Hail Satan! And his little goblins too.
-
Mister Natural Mister Natural https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=164174
- KVRAF
- 2834 posts since 28 Oct, 2007 from michigan
There is prolly a "connect-the-dots" as to why my local CraigsList is chock-full of Guitar and Bass amps these days
expert only on what it feels like to be me
https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks
https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks
-
PurpleCatfishBettie PurpleCatfishBettie https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=211816
- KVRAF
- 3278 posts since 22 Jul, 2009
it might sound a bit 'mystical', but one thing about tone, is that it maybe be that a player 'adds tone' by playing an instrument over time. i've had this one guitar for 15 years, and as time goes by it seems to impart a bit of its own 'played in' tone. maybe i would have never even noticed, but at some point the guitar began 'doing unexpected, welcome things' tone-wise, even through an ampsim; and it caused me to remember a brochure which arrived back in the day with a brand new dulcimer. the brochure stated that the dulcimer would sound better and better, the more it got played. now, perhaps the electric guitar is basically a piece of wood, but on a 'quantum metaphysical' level, there may be something to the 'played in, played on' aspect of tone. anyway, the new steinberg ur22 i/o, combined with an ampsim -- sounds to do amazing things, particularly on single strings. chords involving multiple, wound (as opposed to un-wound) strings may not sound quite as good, but even with a real amp, such chords can be problematical, particularly with an 'overdriven' sound. ymmv
-
- KVRist
- 40 posts since 16 May, 2015
Agree, but on compelely different reasons.
Devs are too focused on imitating certain amps and tend to forget about everything else.
How many amp sims have high sample rate support?
Linear phase oversampling?
Full no compromise convolution for cab simulation?
Can you name one that doesn't sound phasy when mixed to dry signal?
And the most important: where's digital amps that does not imitate anything?
Digital distortion can be more that just so-so imitation of some $$$ device.
Devs are too focused on imitating certain amps and tend to forget about everything else.
How many amp sims have high sample rate support?
Linear phase oversampling?
Full no compromise convolution for cab simulation?
Can you name one that doesn't sound phasy when mixed to dry signal?
And the most important: where's digital amps that does not imitate anything?
Digital distortion can be more that just so-so imitation of some $$$ device.
-
- KVRian
- 1153 posts since 11 Aug, 2004 from Breuillet, France
Doesn't that always means FIR filters in oversampling processing, so extra latency in the plug-in ? I don't think a guitar amp simulator with extra latency is a good ideaLinear phase oversampling?
-
- KVRist
- 40 posts since 16 May, 2015
That's exactly the part of the problem. No one ever considers non-realtime amp sim with good quality instead of real-time pseudo amp. Even with zero latency, roundtrip latency is enough to destroy someone's playing.
-
- KVRist
- 143 posts since 3 Apr, 2001 from Mont de Marsan, 40000, France
the whole video could be done talking about synths too:
Does it sound like the real thing ? if you're asking then you don't care
Does it sound like the real thing ? if you're asking then you don't care
- KVRAF
- 4437 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell
so, let me get this straight. we have a lot of choice, but it's the developers' fault that we can't make up our minds and limit ourselves? that makes no sense. the truth is, it's not in the amp sims - it's in your head. that the guy can't make up his mind and make a choice is his problem, and his alone - amp sims have nothing to do with this.
to be honest, this reeks of something i'm very familiar with - namely, the USSR nostalgia. "oh, back in the day, there were three varieties of salami, and life was simple, and now there's hundreds! that's bad, choice kills creativity!" - no, you idiots, that's good. it's you who can't handle the freedom of choice. other people have nothing to do with your problems.
to be honest, this reeks of something i'm very familiar with - namely, the USSR nostalgia. "oh, back in the day, there were three varieties of salami, and life was simple, and now there's hundreds! that's bad, choice kills creativity!" - no, you idiots, that's good. it's you who can't handle the freedom of choice. other people have nothing to do with your problems.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.
-
- KVRian
- 886 posts since 11 May, 2004 from cologne,germany
thanks for wasting 5 min of my life though nice playing at the end of the video!
i mean honestly, according to this guy the truth about amp modelers is that they dont matter? then go dump your axefx and play with freeware! every guitar player who is honest to himself and recognizes other people´s talents knows that tone comes "from the fingers" in the first place. a great guitar player will sound good on shitty equipment and great on good equipment.
i mean honestly, according to this guy the truth about amp modelers is that they dont matter? then go dump your axefx and play with freeware! every guitar player who is honest to himself and recognizes other people´s talents knows that tone comes "from the fingers" in the first place. a great guitar player will sound good on shitty equipment and great on good equipment.
-
- KVRAF
- 6434 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
It's really sad when you do recordings that are to last - and don't bother more with how it actually sounds - but go for these mimic of sounds.
I bought this CD where they actually used a digital stage piano - for a studio recording - isn't that the sadest thing?
Not a proper piano or grand - a digital piano?
I bought a CD of Pink and True Love album - and I can say there is not a single proper guitar recorded there, all amp sims - and my stomach turns in pain.
It's pretty much like - if you use really good mikes and preamps through out a recording - the total of it all will sound sooooooooo much better. Every part just a little better - but total vast difference.
It does not matter when you make these recordings where a metronome could replace the beat section - you can go with any sound of the rest too.
Many are so used to mp3 now - they have no idea what it could sound like.
When they only have listened to halfbaked in ear phones - they will one day discover what good phones do.
But it will grow on you - and when people hear what actuall instruments sound like - from true musicians expressing themselves - it will bring the joy that nothing else can replace. This is art.
And this artifical phase of instrumentation will have it's place for background music while doing other stuff - but if really just listening to music - you want the real thing - not a bunch of noise generators clucking.
For electric guitar I have to experiment a lot - not using amp sims at all since 10 years back.
Four all tube guitar amps different brands - and a patch bay where all pre amps and power amps can connect any way.
And a range of guitars to that.
To me it's like comparing a frozen ready meal full of industry replacement chemicals, heated in a microwave - or a properly cooked meal with real ingrediences.
If having your friends over for a meal - what will you offer them?
It happends you need a quick meal - but if you want to truly enjoy food it won't do.
I bought this CD where they actually used a digital stage piano - for a studio recording - isn't that the sadest thing?
Not a proper piano or grand - a digital piano?
I bought a CD of Pink and True Love album - and I can say there is not a single proper guitar recorded there, all amp sims - and my stomach turns in pain.
It's pretty much like - if you use really good mikes and preamps through out a recording - the total of it all will sound sooooooooo much better. Every part just a little better - but total vast difference.
It does not matter when you make these recordings where a metronome could replace the beat section - you can go with any sound of the rest too.
Many are so used to mp3 now - they have no idea what it could sound like.
When they only have listened to halfbaked in ear phones - they will one day discover what good phones do.
But it will grow on you - and when people hear what actuall instruments sound like - from true musicians expressing themselves - it will bring the joy that nothing else can replace. This is art.
And this artifical phase of instrumentation will have it's place for background music while doing other stuff - but if really just listening to music - you want the real thing - not a bunch of noise generators clucking.
For electric guitar I have to experiment a lot - not using amp sims at all since 10 years back.
Four all tube guitar amps different brands - and a patch bay where all pre amps and power amps can connect any way.
And a range of guitars to that.
To me it's like comparing a frozen ready meal full of industry replacement chemicals, heated in a microwave - or a properly cooked meal with real ingrediences.
If having your friends over for a meal - what will you offer them?
It happends you need a quick meal - but if you want to truly enjoy food it won't do.