What did people do with time-varying filters prior to 2014?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
This paper:
http://dafx14.fau.de/papers/dafx14_aaro ... s_for_.pdf
has a good overview on time-varying musical filters, but it was published in 2014. However, plenty of time-varying filters have been implemented before that.
I wonder what these filters prior to 2014 used as references? Or are they possibly individual "hacks" regarding e.g. stabilization of DF-II?
http://dafx14.fau.de/papers/dafx14_aaro ... s_for_.pdf
has a good overview on time-varying musical filters, but it was published in 2014. However, plenty of time-varying filters have been implemented before that.
I wonder what these filters prior to 2014 used as references? Or are they possibly individual "hacks" regarding e.g. stabilization of DF-II?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
Okay, maybe nevermind. The references for stabilizing DF-II in that paper are, e.g.:
M. Gold and B. Rader, “Effects of parameter quantization
on the poles of a digital filter,” Proceedings of the IEEE, vol.
55, no. 5, pp. 688–689, May 1967.
[4] R. Rabenstein and R. Czarnach, “Stability of recursive
time-varying digital filters by state vector transformation,”
Signal Processing, vol. 8, pp. 75–92, 1985.
Then it's odd to see the time-varying case still be treated as somehow new though.
M. Gold and B. Rader, “Effects of parameter quantization
on the poles of a digital filter,” Proceedings of the IEEE, vol.
55, no. 5, pp. 688–689, May 1967.
[4] R. Rabenstein and R. Czarnach, “Stability of recursive
time-varying digital filters by state vector transformation,”
Signal Processing, vol. 8, pp. 75–92, 1985.
Then it's odd to see the time-varying case still be treated as somehow new though.
- Beware the Quoth
- 33343 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Given that the paper refers to prior work at least as far back as 1985, why are you claiming that the paper is treating it as new? Abstract says the paper is a novel proof of the SVF, nothing more, certainly not treating anything other than that proof as new.
Strawman vibes here.
Strawman vibes here.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
Well but the question stands. What did they do prior to the SVF then?
If you read the paper more carefully, then it makes it seem like other attempts must be somehow "wrong", because the SVF fits the problem so naturally. E.g. I think transient minimization sounds like a dumb idea even on paper.
Based on the paper they would have looked at DF-IIs that "happen to be nice", coupled forms or then using transient minimization.
If you read the paper more carefully, then it makes it seem like other attempts must be somehow "wrong", because the SVF fits the problem so naturally. E.g. I think transient minimization sounds like a dumb idea even on paper.
Based on the paper they would have looked at DF-IIs that "happen to be nice", coupled forms or then using transient minimization.
- Beware the Quoth
- 33343 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Maybe that stuff in the earlier papers you referenced. Maybe something else, given that, say, Antti's paper on the Moog filter was presented at DAFX a whole decade earlier.soundmodel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:15 pm Well but the question stands. What did they do prior to the SVF then?
You do get that academic research papers arent the entirety of real-world research and development, dont you?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
Which is why this question is asked here.whyterabbyt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:20 pm You do get that academic research papers arent the entirety of real-world research and development, dont you?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
This paper claims to review the history, but also says it does not mention everything.
Variable Digital Filters
Georgi Stoyanov and Masayuki Kawamata
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document? ... edd683549e
Possibly, the chapter "2. Basic Theory" could be quite revealing already(?)
Variable Digital Filters
Georgi Stoyanov and Masayuki Kawamata
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document? ... edd683549e
Possibly, the chapter "2. Basic Theory" could be quite revealing already(?)
- Beware the Quoth
- 33343 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
the only question i see you asking is 'how did people do this thing before a point in time where Im claiming that someone else said it was new even through they didnt'soundmodel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:27 pmWhich is why this question is asked here.whyterabbyt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:20 pm You do get that academic research papers arent the entirety of real-world research and development, dont you?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
- Beware the Quoth
- 33343 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
yes, because the person who wrote it clearly didnt assume they knew everything of that history.soundmodel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:35 pm This paper claims to review the history, but also says it does not mention everything.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
This small paper claims that SVF is not known because of poor documentation:
Digital State-Variable Filters
Fons ADRIAENSEN
http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/digsvfilt.pdf
It references a 2020 paper though, so maybe the writer is not informed.
---
To answer viewtopic.php?p=8872347#p8872347 below:
Based on the superior advantages of the SVF presented in the first post's paper, people should be driven to use the SVF, if they'd be aware of the results from that paper or elsewhere.
Digital State-Variable Filters
Fons ADRIAENSEN
http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/digsvfilt.pdf
It references a 2020 paper though, so maybe the writer is not informed.
---
To answer viewtopic.php?p=8872347#p8872347 below:
Based on the superior advantages of the SVF presented in the first post's paper, people should be driven to use the SVF, if they'd be aware of the results from that paper or elsewhere.
Last edited by soundmodel on Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- KVRAF
- 15336 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
How ironic...
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
This could be a somewhat significant paper (just a guess based on the year 2005 and the content):
High-Order Digital Parametric Equalizer Design
Sophocles J. Orfanidis
http://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~orfanidi/ece348/hpeq.pdf
Here
https://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~orfanidi/hpeq/
it says that the filters are in Matlab's Filter Design Toolbox.
The Filter Design Toolbox only seems to implement these and RBJ's biquads. https://se.mathworks.com/help/audio/ug/ ... ation.html
I wonder if it's reasonable to expect that Matlab has chosen the most prominent references? Or i.e. it would then point to the idea that other plug-ins are likely using Orfanidis' paper to some extent? In some other domains the implementations that Matlab has are usually a good representation of the "state of the art".
High-Order Digital Parametric Equalizer Design
Sophocles J. Orfanidis
http://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~orfanidi/ece348/hpeq.pdf
Here
https://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~orfanidi/hpeq/
it says that the filters are in Matlab's Filter Design Toolbox.
The Filter Design Toolbox only seems to implement these and RBJ's biquads. https://se.mathworks.com/help/audio/ug/ ... ation.html
I wonder if it's reasonable to expect that Matlab has chosen the most prominent references? Or i.e. it would then point to the idea that other plug-ins are likely using Orfanidis' paper to some extent? In some other domains the implementations that Matlab has are usually a good representation of the "state of the art".
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gaggle of hermits gaggle of hermits https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=521655
- KVRian
- 965 posts since 18 Jul, 2021
no it doesn't:soundmodel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:55 pm This small paper claims that SVF is not known because of poor documentation:
Digital State-Variable Filters
Fons ADRIAENSEN
http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/digsvfilt.pdf
It references a 2020 paper though, so maybe the writer is not informed.
"So one may wonder why it is not used more often. The main reason seems to poor documentation."
not used more often /= not known
why lie about this?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
Yet another paper (from 2010):
Accurate Discretization of Analog Audio Filters
with Application to Parametric Equalizer Design
Simo Särkkä, Member, IEEE and Antti Huovilainen
https://users.aalto.fi/~ssarkka/pub/eq-article.pdf
It's not about musical filters though. It writes:
Accurate Discretization of Analog Audio Filters
with Application to Parametric Equalizer Design
Simo Särkkä, Member, IEEE and Antti Huovilainen
https://users.aalto.fi/~ssarkka/pub/eq-article.pdf
It's not about musical filters though. It writes:
However, the references section of the 2010 paper looks like it could a very good historical reference for time-varying filters.The disadvantage of the methods is that it introduces
a slight delay to the signal (order of tens of samples), which
limits its applicability to control engineering applications.
- u-he
- 28109 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
The time-varying case is not treated as new. The first sentence in the paper reads:soundmodel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:01 pm Then it's odd to see the time-varying case still be treated as somehow new though.
"A variety of methods are available for implementing time-varying digital filters for musical applications."
So, if a variety of methods are available, then certainly they predate the paper and thus are not treated as new.
(I for sure remember implementing time-varying filters for musical applications in the previous Millennium)