music theory/musical cliches/formula/tips etc

[intothedawn]

[quote="strav100"]Blandness in simple chord progessions is usually done to poor voice leading and lack of embellishing notes.
quote]


a couple of questions on embellishments

are the embelishing notes usually part of a voice or just tagged on with another intrument?

if they're part of the voice(im guessing they are),which voices are most commonly dressed up?

what would you say is most common - embellishments that follow the melody or embellishments that follow some contrapuntal route?

[glurgle]

If want, we can have a friendly talk about what I do and don't know, if want privately and keep it off the forum. Feel free to contact me directly via my email address if interested. For now, I will abort this forum for Into's sake of seeking information.

Don't worry too much about it 215. Nuffink is just quite convinced he is the law when it comes to modal theory, and the rest of us don't care enough to argue.

[215 Productions]

Into...

No worries, I did not get angry by any stretch or means. Takes much more to cause such. And, this is a forum and it is OK to agree and or not. Like difference in opinions about technique, approaches to theory and music writing is the same. I try to approach everything professionally... with music, when I teach and life in general. I fully welcomed us to discuss that issue privately, to keep of your forum. To my defense though, I always make it clear when I make any comment that it is based purely on my opinion. Sure, I can just be exact as the theory books say,adhering to the strict rules, but even as the website I was directed to check out says "harmonic theory attempts to explain what notes can be us to extend that chord, what notes sound good when played and what chord sounds good coming after it." If taking that literally, the word attempts, it creates a potential template, dependent up a variety of factors. The rest, whether it be chordal or linear writing, again in my opinion only, depends on one's ears. Heck, I always say I am a constant student, so if I can learn something from somebody, I welcome it and will always be willing to discuss so professionally and with respect. Why all those words, go with what you want to achieve. As you can see, it is easy to get caught up in discussing differences in understanding theory (western,) but in the end... it boils down to how it sounds to you and what you are trying to illustrate to the listener. I will leave my thoughts at that. Take care all and have a good weekend.

[215 Productions]

Always all good, not a big deal! Just being curtious to Into... Appreciate it though. The 215 is my hometown area code, Philly... we thick skinned!

[geekboy]

Nuffink: What did 215 say that you find so controversial. He sounds right to me. You, on the other hand, have me wondering.

The Dorian mode is the preferred mode for all minor chords... hmmm. I'm a drummer mostly, but even I know that the Dorian mode is the preferred mode only when you are on the ii (2 chord). Yes, Dorian is the "jazzy" minor mode... but wow.

Most melody lines are based on the Ionian and Aeolian modes. Listen to any hard rock lately? Isn't the minor pentatonic based on the Aeolian mode?

[nuffink]

If want, we can have a friendly talk about what I do and don't know, if want privately and keep it off the forum. Feel free to contact me directly via my email address if interested. For now, I will abort this forum for Into's sake of seeking information.

Don't worry too much about it 215. Nuffink is just quite convinced he is the law when it comes to modal theory, and the rest of us don't care enough to argue.

Translation. nuffink can be bothered to answer. Arseholes like me just write snide comments when we can be arsed, because the actual theory's beyond us.

[nuffink]

Nuffink,

What are your thoughts regarding functional harmony in modal music?

This is something Iv been considering quite a bit lately. Obviously the dominant tonic relationship isnt present in alot of the modes. But are they other satisfying progressions that can be modal substitutes for V-I? I think there probably is (be it a with a weaker resolution).

TB

Tee boy. I had a long, meandering, slightly boring answer to this. But since I have no desire to be kvr's "law when it comes to modal theory", f**k it.

[herodotus]

Nuffink,

What are your thoughts regarding functional harmony in modal music?



TB

Of course, I am not nuffink, but he is off being lawless, so...

Functional harmony is a series of rules that apply specifically to the major and harmonic minor scales. Although these are derived from the older church modes, they are treated in a way that is unique to them. The person who codified the theory of functional harmony was Rameau, who didn't bother much with the older modes.

The system of functional harmony worked by extending and elaborating the harmonies present within the major and minor scales, so the tonic-dominant-subdominant relationship is central to it. The dominant is really the key concept. Shenkerian analysts fill whole books with the subject of how the dominant in all of its many forms is the linch-pin, not just of functional harmony, but of western civilization itself.

So in short, there is no existing system of functional harmony relating specifically to the other church modes .

Of course, one could always invent one.

[tee boy]

Nuffink,

What are your thoughts regarding functional harmony in modal music?



TB

Of course, I am not nuffink, but he is off being lawless, so...

Functional harmony is a series of rules that apply specifically to the major and harmonic minor scales. Although these are derived from the older church modes, they are treated in a way that is unique to them. The person who codified the theory of functional harmony was Rameau, who didn't bother much with the older modes.

The system of functional harmony worked by extending and elaborating the harmonies present within the major and minor scales, so the tonic-dominant-subdominant relationship is central to it. The dominant is really the key concept. Shenkerian analysts fill whole books with the subject of how the dominant in all of its many forms is the linch-pin, not just of functional harmony, but of western civilization itself.

So in short, there is no existing system of functional harmony relating specifically to the other church modes .

Of course, one could always invent one.

Herodotus,

Thanks, appreciate your answer.

As happens, Im very familiar with the concepts of functional harmony. Indeed, I had the joy (or not) of analysising the chromatic progressions of romantics a few years ago, along with a bucket full of chorals and classical sonatas.

Im highly interested in attempting to develop some substitute functions for modal music. For instance, I noticed a while bach that 'iv' can act as a great substitute for V in a major key. Probably due to the flattened submediant. For instance, Fm6 leading into C Major is a beautiful resolution imo, and can only occur when 'borrowed' from the relative minor mode.

So I began to wonder what other progression one could develop in the different modes. Maybe even create new primary triads for each of the modes? Im sure this could lead to some interesting and highly ambigious tonalities (in some modes more than others).

TB

[Jafo]

No. The preferred mode for any minor chord would be Dorian. Alternatives would be Aolian or Phrygian.

In jazz, yes. That raised 6th has a lot of virtues -- it doesn't clash with the fifth of the chord, lets you do some very interesting things with the melody and harmony, and makes you sound like the Doors -- but most people seem to prefer to remain diatonic. But that's probably due to an over-reliance on the rules of good Muzak...

[Jafo]

For instance, I noticed a while bach that 'iv' can act as a great substitute for V in a major key. Probably due to the flattened submediant. For instance, Fm6 leading into C Major is a beautiful resolution imo, and can only occur when 'borrowed' from the relative minor mode.

"Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?"

Or Zep's "Ten years Gone." Beautiful fscking song!

Yeah, minor subdominant chords rule.

[glurgle]

If want, we can have a friendly talk about what I do and don't know, if want privately and keep it off the forum. Feel free to contact me directly via my email address if interested. For now, I will abort this forum for Into's sake of seeking information.

Don't worry too much about it 215. Nuffink is just quite convinced he is the law when it comes to modal theory, and the rest of us don't care enough to argue.

Translation. nuffink can be bothered to answer. Arseholes like me just write snide comments when we can be arsed, because the actual theory's beyond us.

Well you're correct my comment had only to do with your attitude towards somebody else attempting to contribute. You gave no constructive criticism, just called him ignorant and then didn't explain what you meant. Not really my problem I guess, but I didn't want a user who just registered to be put off the forum because of it.

Regarding theory, my lack of enthusiasm for writing about it does not equate ignorance. Thanks for assuming though.

edited for inflammatory speech.

[Jafo]

But are they other satisfying progressions that can be modal substitutes for V-I? I think there probably is (be it a with a weaker resolution).

The IV-I (the "A--men" cadence) is pretty groovy, as is any minor subdominant cadence (iv-i, iv-I, iio-I, etc.). Modal music also uses bVII-I a lot; the bVII is clearly a substitute for the V.

But I think my favorite is IV/5-I or iimin7/5-I: G/A-D, and Emin7/A-D (as heard in so many of the Doors' songs; "Indian Summer" and "Hyacinth House" are basically just Emin7 and D).

Another nice one is to precede a minor chord by a major chord a fourth higher: D-Am in the key of Amin. This is probably one reason why so many people favor the Dorian mode over the Aeolian for minor chords, even ones not on the ii.

[tee boy]

For instance, I noticed a while bach that 'iv' can act as a great substitute for V in a major key. Probably due to the flattened submediant. For instance, Fm6 leading into C Major is a beautiful resolution imo, and can only occur when 'borrowed' from the relative minor mode.

"Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?"

Or Zep's "Ten years Gone." Beautiful fscking song!

Yeah, minor subdominant chords rule.

To right!

I think it was on that Clapton tune as well (the one on Goodfellas ).

I tend to think it has a 'moonlight' sound about it. Probably because Im used to hearing it in romantic nocturnes and that. But it is a versatile resolution for sure and can work in numerous situations.

TB

[tee boy]

But are they other satisfying progressions that can be modal substitutes for V-I? I think there probably is (be it a with a weaker resolution).

The IV-I (the "A--men" cadence) is pretty groovy, as is any minor subdominant cadence (iv-i, iv-I, iio-I, etc.). Modal music also uses bVII-I a lot; the bVII is clearly a substitute for the V.

But I think my favorite is IV/5-I or iimin7/5-I: G/A-D, and Emin7/A-D (as heard in so many of the Doors' songs; "Indian Summer" and "Hyacinth House" are basically just Emin7 and D).

Another nice one is to precede a minor chord by a major chord a fourth higher: D-Am in the key of Amin. This is probably one reason why so many people favor the Dorian mode over the Aeolian for minor chords, even ones not on the ii.

Im must admit to liking more abstract harmony these days. I do quite alot of chromatic mediant modulations, and tritone root movement. Those still sounds interesting imo.

TB