One Synth Challenge #182: Charlatan 3 by BlauKraut Engineering / karrikuh (IrionDaRonin Wins!)
- KVRist
- 388 posts since 4 Jan, 2022
I think what Impedance has done is really fun and inventive and I have no problem with it.
However - it does make me think about where this method could end - and that could be outside the spirit of OSC.
According to Fourier - any time based waveform can be transformed into the frequency domain - and back. Theoretically - perfectly.
Therefore theoretically one could record a song with real instruments (drums, guitars, vocals etc), and with enough sine waves at a high granularity of frequency - could replicate with high fidelity the sound of the recorded song with any synthesizer that can produce sine waves (with enough instances).
I don't suppose anyone will. But it's just a thought experiment. It wouldn't break the rules of OSC, but I think it would break the spirit.
However - it does make me think about where this method could end - and that could be outside the spirit of OSC.
According to Fourier - any time based waveform can be transformed into the frequency domain - and back. Theoretically - perfectly.
Therefore theoretically one could record a song with real instruments (drums, guitars, vocals etc), and with enough sine waves at a high granularity of frequency - could replicate with high fidelity the sound of the recorded song with any synthesizer that can produce sine waves (with enough instances).
I don't suppose anyone will. But it's just a thought experiment. It wouldn't break the rules of OSC, but I think it would break the spirit.
Captain Silverpants
- KVRAF
- 2150 posts since 22 Sep, 2016
Audio 2 Midi is not new. There's videos on YT which "reproduce" for instance "staying alive" ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDpunFo_2E
And I think I have shared the link when the discussion about what is in the spirit of OSC was more intense a few years back.
With AI and Midi 2.0 it should be possible to create even closer to the original results.
And I think I have shared the link when the discussion about what is in the spirit of OSC was more intense a few years back.
With AI and Midi 2.0 it should be possible to create even closer to the original results.
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- KVRAF
- 2198 posts since 7 Mar, 2014
Thanks Peter - yes that was a fun thing to post - heard it before ... the brain is good at hearing what it wants eh?
As I said in my post, to capture the subtlety of speech via MIDI (ie notes with pitch bends!), then you need to capture the stack of formants and then play them through a synth with the correct style of OSC. The usual case for pure speech synthesis systems (vs phonemic or other forms), is to produce a glottal pulse (which you can see if you analyse a lot of the speech systems!). Some form of pulse would be good vs eg a sine/saw wave. I did have the source code (in VAXC) for MITTalk, the forerunner of DECTalk and clones. Using the KLATT synthesiser. All legal, btw, our team was gifted the code by the lab at MIT - just sitting on the shelf of Dennis Klatt's lab/office.
dB
As I said in my post, to capture the subtlety of speech via MIDI (ie notes with pitch bends!), then you need to capture the stack of formants and then play them through a synth with the correct style of OSC. The usual case for pure speech synthesis systems (vs phonemic or other forms), is to produce a glottal pulse (which you can see if you analyse a lot of the speech systems!). Some form of pulse would be good vs eg a sine/saw wave. I did have the source code (in VAXC) for MITTalk, the forerunner of DECTalk and clones. Using the KLATT synthesiser. All legal, btw, our team was gifted the code by the lab at MIT - just sitting on the shelf of Dennis Klatt's lab/office.
dB
- KVRist
- 411 posts since 4 Nov, 2019
I appreciate this as an experiment, but I think it's already pushing the boundaries of the rules. If someone were to generate MIDI input like this without an audio input, I agree there would be no problem with it. Computing it from a recording, I'm not so sure. No use of samples is allowed. Arguably, that applies not only to use directly as a sound source, but also to side chaining and computing parameter inputs. If not, perhaps it should, so we have some kind of clear line on the matter.silverpants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:22 am I think what Impedance has done is really fun and inventive and I have no problem with it.
Celebrating 50 years of pants with frogs in them
- KVRist
- 388 posts since 4 Jan, 2022
You make a good point.FrogsInPants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 3:22 pmI appreciate this as an experiment, but I think it's already pushing the boundaries of the rules. If someone were to generate MIDI input like this without an audio input, I agree there would be no problem with it. Computing it from a recording, I'm not so sure. No use of samples is allowed. Arguably, that applies not only to use directly as a sound source, but also to side chaining and computing parameter inputs. If not, perhaps it should, so we have some kind of clear line on the matter.silverpants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:22 am I think what Impedance has done is really fun and inventive and I have no problem with it.
Captain Silverpants
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Impedance Music Impedance Music https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=439982
- KVRist
- 92 posts since 27 Apr, 2019
I've used this free Online Converter to create the midi:
https://www.bearaudiotool.com/de/mp3-to-midi
Having read your comments: Yes, i agree - this is pretty much on the edge of what i would consider fine with the rules. An additional rule clarifying that computed inputs of actual audio samples are not permitted sounds good to me. Especially because it didn't occur to me as using a sample when creating the track.FrogsInPants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 3:22 pmI appreciate this as an experiment, but I think it's already pushing the boundaries of the rules. [...] No use of samples is allowed. Arguably, that applies not only to use directly as a sound source, but also to side chaining and computing parameter inputs. If not, perhaps it should, so we have some kind of clear line on the matter.silverpants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:22 am I think what Impedance has done is really fun and inventive and I have no problem with it.
However - it does make me think about where this method could end - and that could be outside the spirit of OSC. [...] It wouldn't break the rules of OSC, but I think it would break the spirit.
"We should not kill the earth, we wouldn´t know where to bury it!" - Michel Granger
- KVRian
- 962 posts since 30 Oct, 2013 from Scarborough
Final Results: IrionDaRonin - Gone is the Winner!!!!
1. IrionDaRonin - Gone - 182
2. ] Peter:H [ - Elron Molusks Karl - Marx - Experience On A Onewa - 175
3. z.prime - It Doesn't Get Better - 174
4. ChristopherWD - My drummer roommate won't stop practicing while - 169
5. davi-dj - Charlatán del Mar - 169
6. MadMcMan - Glennie wants a 303 - 168pts
7. Vospi - Who Cares - 166pts
8. Impedance Music - Charlatan - 165pts
9. The Sound Of Merlin - Time Is Up - 163pts
10. YYeet - Trick or Rave - 159pts
11. Viroo - 13 Chalatans - 157pts
12. neverbeeninariot - Quacksalver - 156pts
13. Leonard Bowman - 15 Days Without Knowing - 153pts
14. ThePresent - Tomato Sauce Accident - 153pts
15. empphryio - Stranded - 152pts
16. RichardSemper - Coral City - 151pts
17. abot81 - Rising Above - 150pts
18. nenneb - A Bath In The Woods (Collab with Taron) - 150pts
19. phankiejankie303 - Feeling Blue - 149pts
20. Ronny Pries - blaukraut != Brautkleid - 148pts
21. zipidowski - Cemetery - 148pts
22. simanus - Soft Feedback - 147pts
23. hennessey - Look Up - 147pts
24. VCA-089 - New Atlantis - 147pts
25. Juergen - Charlatan 3 By BlauKraut Engineering - 146pts
26. silverpants - Fusion Stomp - 144pts
27. doctorbob - The Charlatan Is Exposed - 144pts
28. BrainBeatMusic - The Charlatan - 142pts
29. MalToné - Eat Pray Syn(th) - 141pts
dq. orbeater - minimal mechagodzilla (orbeater for OSC 182) - 141pts
30. vata44 - A Charlatan's Dream - 141pts
31. ELEX - The Andromeda Twist - 138pts
32. diaseis - The Crooked Cloud Experience - 138pts
33. HappySpark - Imposter - 134pts
34. Neptune - Run Faster - 133pts
35. Eauson - Untitled - 132pts
36. wikter - Ready - 130pts
37. bzz - Hyperspace Charlatans - 129pts
dq. 574X - cling:suffer, accept:peace - 125pts
38. whatevergeek - Swamp Dance - 120pts
39. violator_alba - Clout Casting - 115pts
Prizes:
First place winner, please announce your chosen prize in a reply here on this thread. Next place winners, follow up, one after the other. You may choose to skip. To receive the prize, it may take some time (even a week-month+), but be patient. NOTE: prizes are not passed down below top 5
Awesome round! Excellent work everyone
Great too to see the return of some past Masters, also so many first time entrants! Hope you can stick around for future OSCs.
And many thanks to Blaukraut for this amazing reboot of the classic Charlatan!
Scoresheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
1. IrionDaRonin - Gone - 182
2. ] Peter:H [ - Elron Molusks Karl - Marx - Experience On A Onewa - 175
3. z.prime - It Doesn't Get Better - 174
4. ChristopherWD - My drummer roommate won't stop practicing while - 169
5. davi-dj - Charlatán del Mar - 169
6. MadMcMan - Glennie wants a 303 - 168pts
7. Vospi - Who Cares - 166pts
8. Impedance Music - Charlatan - 165pts
9. The Sound Of Merlin - Time Is Up - 163pts
10. YYeet - Trick or Rave - 159pts
11. Viroo - 13 Chalatans - 157pts
12. neverbeeninariot - Quacksalver - 156pts
13. Leonard Bowman - 15 Days Without Knowing - 153pts
14. ThePresent - Tomato Sauce Accident - 153pts
15. empphryio - Stranded - 152pts
16. RichardSemper - Coral City - 151pts
17. abot81 - Rising Above - 150pts
18. nenneb - A Bath In The Woods (Collab with Taron) - 150pts
19. phankiejankie303 - Feeling Blue - 149pts
20. Ronny Pries - blaukraut != Brautkleid - 148pts
21. zipidowski - Cemetery - 148pts
22. simanus - Soft Feedback - 147pts
23. hennessey - Look Up - 147pts
24. VCA-089 - New Atlantis - 147pts
25. Juergen - Charlatan 3 By BlauKraut Engineering - 146pts
26. silverpants - Fusion Stomp - 144pts
27. doctorbob - The Charlatan Is Exposed - 144pts
28. BrainBeatMusic - The Charlatan - 142pts
29. MalToné - Eat Pray Syn(th) - 141pts
dq. orbeater - minimal mechagodzilla (orbeater for OSC 182) - 141pts
30. vata44 - A Charlatan's Dream - 141pts
31. ELEX - The Andromeda Twist - 138pts
32. diaseis - The Crooked Cloud Experience - 138pts
33. HappySpark - Imposter - 134pts
34. Neptune - Run Faster - 133pts
35. Eauson - Untitled - 132pts
36. wikter - Ready - 130pts
37. bzz - Hyperspace Charlatans - 129pts
dq. 574X - cling:suffer, accept:peace - 125pts
38. whatevergeek - Swamp Dance - 120pts
39. violator_alba - Clout Casting - 115pts
Prizes:
First place winner, please announce your chosen prize in a reply here on this thread. Next place winners, follow up, one after the other. You may choose to skip. To receive the prize, it may take some time (even a week-month+), but be patient. NOTE: prizes are not passed down below top 5
Awesome round! Excellent work everyone
Great too to see the return of some past Masters, also so many first time entrants! Hope you can stick around for future OSCs.
And many thanks to Blaukraut for this amazing reboot of the classic Charlatan!
Scoresheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Last edited by RichardSemper on Thu May 16, 2024 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://rjsemper.wixsite.com/website
One Synth Challenge - https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
One Synth Challenge - https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
- KVRian
- 962 posts since 30 Oct, 2013 from Scarborough
Note taken.Impedance Music wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 5:06 pmI've used this free Online Converter to create the midi:
https://www.bearaudiotool.com/de/mp3-to-midi
Having read your comments: Yes, i agree - this is pretty much on the edge of what i would consider fine with the rules. An additional rule clarifying that computed inputs of actual audio samples are not permitted sounds good to me. Especially because it didn't occur to me as using a sample when creating the track.FrogsInPants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 3:22 pmI appreciate this as an experiment, but I think it's already pushing the boundaries of the rules. [...] No use of samples is allowed. Arguably, that applies not only to use directly as a sound source, but also to side chaining and computing parameter inputs. If not, perhaps it should, so we have some kind of clear line on the matter.silverpants wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:22 am I think what Impedance has done is really fun and inventive and I have no problem with it.
However - it does make me think about where this method could end - and that could be outside the spirit of OSC. [...] It wouldn't break the rules of OSC, but I think it would break the spirit.
Might be a good idea to discuss this, and perhaps the possible impacts of AI for the challenge, over on the General Discussion thread:
viewtopic.php?t=301957&start=4455
https://rjsemper.wixsite.com/website
One Synth Challenge - https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
One Synth Challenge - https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
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Impedance Music Impedance Music https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=439982
- KVRist
- 92 posts since 27 Apr, 2019
Congratulations to IrionDaRonin, PeterH, Z.Prime, ChristopherWD and DaviDJ! Well deserved! And also congratulations to all the participants since this round was really impressive!
Also big thanks to Richard and BJPorter for organizing this challenge each month!
Finally i didn't forget to congratulate the winners!
And this time on the correct tab!
Also big thanks to Richard and BJPorter for organizing this challenge each month!
Finally i didn't forget to congratulate the winners!
And this time on the correct tab!
"We should not kill the earth, we wouldn´t know where to bury it!" - Michel Granger
- KVRAF
- 2616 posts since 18 Mar, 2011 from Spain
Guys!!!
Oh my... I didn't expect this. So happy!
When i saw my name in the main title my eyes were going to pop-out!
Thank you for all your support, votes, and points, and love. This for sure is a warm welcome!
You are all amazing, lovely friends and great musicians. Maybe i will stick in future OSCs.
Congrats to everybody to participate in the contest!
Now before i ask my prize, I saw "secondary" and "additional" prizes. Is this stackable prizes or how are these going exactly? This is totally new to me. Could anybody explain this further? Thanks!
Oh my... I didn't expect this. So happy!
When i saw my name in the main title my eyes were going to pop-out!
Thank you for all your support, votes, and points, and love. This for sure is a warm welcome!
You are all amazing, lovely friends and great musicians. Maybe i will stick in future OSCs.
Congrats to everybody to participate in the contest!
Now before i ask my prize, I saw "secondary" and "additional" prizes. Is this stackable prizes or how are these going exactly? This is totally new to me. Could anybody explain this further? Thanks!
Last edited by IrionDaRonin on Thu May 16, 2024 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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neverbeeninariot neverbeeninariot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350084
- KVRian
- 937 posts since 3 Feb, 2015 from UK
Big ups to the winner IrionDaRonin, it was a beautiful track.
Congratulations to the rest of the greenies PeterH, Z.Prime, ChristopherWD and DaviDJ !
Congratulations to the rest of the greenies PeterH, Z.Prime, ChristopherWD and DaviDJ !
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neverbeeninariot neverbeeninariot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350084
- KVRian
- 937 posts since 3 Feb, 2015 from UK
Impedance Music wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 6:05 pm Finally i didn't forget to congratulate the winners!
And this time on the correct tab!
- KVRist
- 487 posts since 17 Dec, 2013 from The Netherlands
The return of several OSC champions hasn’t gone by unnoticed Congratulations, winners!