Relative Knob Modes for 360 Encoders

[sl23]

I'm trying to get my hardware encoders to work in relative mode but nothing seems to work. I have a BeatStep Pro and a MPK MiniPlus. I've set both to their Relative Modes, tested with Sylenth, Zebra2, AIR Basslineand with some others, but all it does is change between two settings.

The MiniPlus changes between 1 and 127. BSP has 3 relative modes which change between 1 and 127, 63 and 65, 15 and 16. They all do the same thing, just set the assigned knob to that exact value instead of a pick up. Why is this happening?

Thing is, I haven't used controllers much, I have only just found out about this issue. If I assign an encoder to a parameter in absolute mode, it doesn't work correctly as it moves the parameter, but stops if the hardware reaches min or max value first, even if the parameter is nowhere near it's min or max value.

Does anyone else have this issue?
Is it a MuLab or VST/CLAP plugin issue?

Thanks for your help.

[Michael L]

Why is this happening?

Probly normal. Read your manuals to see how the controllers define different modes, and how to map them in those modes. For example, in my Novation SL 2 manual:

REL1 (Relative 1): A message with value 65 is sent out for every clockwise step (increment) and a message with value 63 is sent out for every anti-clockwise step (decrement). With this option the encoder functions as a true endless control rather than emulates an analogue pot as with the 0-127 and -64/+63 settings.

REL2 (Relative 2): This is similar to the ‘REL1’ setting however it includes encoder acceleration. A message with value 64+n is sent out for every clockwise step (increment) and a message with value 64-n is sent out for every anti-clockwise step (decrement). The value n depends on how fast you rotate the encoder. It will be 1 when you rotate it slowly and get larger the faster you rotate it, meaning that you can scale the full range of a parameter with a small quick turn of an encoder.

BTW, that controller has four more encoder modes; two variations on these, two different. I did not know that until now.

[sl23]

Thanks Michael.
I have checked both manuals, but neither give much info other than what I stated above.

According to a reply to my topic on arturia forum, it's both a host and vst issue. Apparently you have to set it in the plugin. I can't find any kind of setting in MuLab or plugins.

So, does your SL work in relative mode in MuLab?

[Michael L]

What about the Beatstep MIDI Control Center?

[sl23]

What about it? I used that to change the knob mode of one knob to each Relative setting, then sent to device and saved the Settings. None of those work with MuLab or any plugins I've tried. I have done a quick test with Reaper too, though I don't use Reaper so don't know how to set up Relative Knobs, if it's possible.

Does Relative Knob Mode work for you in MuLab?

I'm trying Pointer-CC, but the dev is on holiday for two weeks now. Just trying to get all info I can about it as he seems keen to remedy all the issues I pointed out. But I then have a problem with Windows only letting one app use a MIDI device! Tried installing LoopMidi, but that shows an error about teVirtualMidi32.dll not found!
Turning out to be a right pita!

EDIT: Fixed the error but how do you configure it to work with a device? Anyone?

[Michael L]

Does Relative Knob Mode work for you in MuLab?

I do not use your hardware or OS, so my experience has limited relevance, for example according to my controller manual relative mode is supposed to do what you experience. Also, my controller uses that mode primarily to control external MIDI hardware, while other modes are for software.

[sl23]

Ok, thanks for the info.
But I assume your SL Relative Mode works for controlling plugins, seeing as you use MuLab, OS doesn't matter.

[robert_p]

In my case, relative knob mode requires bi-directional MIDI communication (send and receive ports).

P.S. Also, the MIDI controller needs to be equipped with rotary endless encoders.

[pljones]

A relative controller, as Michael indicates, essentially a three state switch:
- The value went up ("increment" message sent)
- Nothing changes (no message sent)
- The value went down ("decrement" message sent)

It doesn't encode any more than that. Like with any MIDI message, the meaning is entirely down to the receiver. So you need to decide how you want those messages interpreted, or find a module that's already set up to deal with them. Start by plugging in an "Event Monitor" after the project Event Input to see what messages are being received -- it's a lot easier once you know clearly what's happening to decide what you want done with that information.

Note that MuLab has pretty basic MIDI controller handling - you'll have to rely on your plugins.

[sl23]

Well, I've setup several apps to work together to get over the windows MIDI limitation of one app per device. These apps are Pointer-CC, MIDI-OX and LoopMidi. So I can see everything going on and it all works as it should. The only issue is the Relative Knob Mode doesn't work on either the MiniPlus or Beststep Pro, which both have endless encoders.

I understand how it's working, the messages sent, but I don't understand why MuLab, Reaper, VSTHost, NanoHost or any plugin doesn't interpret these messages as they should, ie, as increments or decrements. I can't believe that no software supports this, endless encoders have been around for years now.

So I am wondering how everyone else manages with this when using MuLab? do you not use endless encoders in relative mode to control anything? Specifically in MuLab, but what about Reaper or plugins?

@pljones: You say I need a module to receive these messages, what type of module? You mean another app? How would that integrate into MuLab? Maybe a Plugin of some sort? Surely this sort of thing should be built into all daw's?

Thank you for your help.

[robert_p]

My controller was provided with "Mackie Control Universal" template. I assign "MCU V-Pot" type ( ID 1-8) to the encoders using "Controller Editor" software. Then I add a new device to my DAW (Mackie Control template in Studio One), assign input/output ports and it works.
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Mackie Control.jpg

[sl23]

So I assume this isn't possible in MuLab then?
If a host recognises Relative Knobs, does it mean the info is communicated correctly to plugins?
What are the MIDI output ports for in MuLab? Are they just for controlling external hardware, or do they allow for relative mode?
The Beatstep Pro can use MCU/HUI, but I have no idea how to use these or even if MuLab can use these.

[robert_p]

I think Joe mentioned a while ago that MuLab doesn't support the MCU protocol.

[sl23]

Ah ok, thanks. So relative knob mode needs to be a FR then?

[robert_p]

So relative knob mode needs to be a FR then?

Yes!