Recorded MPE, midi output issues?

[Kalee]

Hey,

I've had this strange issue since forever. Everything works perfectly well when I have:
1. A midi track armed
2. I play Linnstrument to Ableton Live (11.3.11) connected with usb
3. Output that midi to my audio / midi interface and midi DIN from there to an active midi splitter, which forwards it to synth. No issues at all.

But when I record midi clip with everything set the same. The midi output gets slowed down somewhere and it lags behind other playback. Also midi clock starts lagging.

With softsynths I don't have any issues.
Has anyone countered similar issues with MPE?

And how to solve?

Thanks,

[Kalee]

Hey,

If you have a working system with Linnstrument, Ableton Live 11 and an MPE synth connected to computer. Can you please tell me what synth, midi interface and computer you are using?

I'm with Macbook Air M1 and Behringer UMC404HD midi out to Micromonsta 2. Not working properly.

[monch1962]

Hey @Kalee,

Your MIDI DIN connection won't support anything like the same data rate as your USB MIDI connection. If you're sending loads of MPE data from your Linnstrument, it's just possible that it gets to Ableton OK, but then gets throttled beyond Ableton due to using the MIDI DIN connection. If so, that seems like a reasonable explanation for what you're seeing

Are you able to try *either* MIDI DIN for all your connections, or MIDI USB for all your connections?

[Kalee]

Hey @Kalee,

Your MIDI DIN connection won't support anything like the same data rate as your USB MIDI connection. If you're sending loads of MPE data from your Linnstrument, it's just possible that it gets to Ableton OK, but then gets throttled beyond Ableton due to using the MIDI DIN connection. If so, that seems like a reasonable explanation for what you're seeing

Are you able to try *either* MIDI DIN for all your connections, or MIDI USB for all your connections?

Yeah I've tried midi DIN and slowing the output rate to worst setting on usb and removed Y-axis. The funny thing is that everything is ok even with good settings and extra axis on when playing realtime through Ableton Live. Its just when the MPE is recorded when problems start.

Do you have a working setup with hardware MPE synth?

[Roger_Linn]

The funny thing is that everything is ok even with good settings and extra axis on when playing realtime through Ableton Live. Its just when the MPE is recorded when problems start.

Hi Kaylee-- this suggests that Live is doing something different on playback than during practice. It might be the problem that I explain on the Recommended Sounds page, in the "Ableton" entry in the list of MPE sounds:

"Live's MPE implementation is unusual. The received MIDI channel is not stored in the sequence with the recorded events, but rather Live randomly assigns one of the MPE per-note channels on playback. This was a simpler way for them to implement MPE, but it has two problems:

1) You can't record two instances of the same pitch.

2) If using Channel Per Row mode in LinnStrument, and each row uses a different sound, on playback the notes you recorded will playback on different channels and therefore use a sound intended for a different row that you originally played."

This could be causing the problem you're hearing. Hard to say.


Or if it's related to overloading your MIDI interface, that wouldn't surprise me in a Behringer product, which is probably designed for the light MIDI streams of conventional keyboards but may have trouble with the dense MIDI streams of MPE. There's a helpful FAQ on the LinnStrument FAQ page, "Problems" tab, FAQ"

"Sometimes when I play multiple pads, a note will stick on after release. This can happen anywhere on the playing surface. Wassup?"

This FAQ gives some tips on thinning out the MPE data. If you try one of these or simply slow the playback tempo and find that the problem is solved, then the problem is likely overloading of your MIDI interface or computer, and is solved by thinning out the MIDI data. Also, you may be unintentionally sending MIDI data from other tracks that is clogging up the sent MIDI stream.

I hope some of the above helps.

[SteveElbows]

If its a Live fault/bottleneck then dont be afraid to try a Live beta version for testing purposes (you can keep the non-beta installed too).

Also if you use Lives External Instrument device to get the MIDI out of the track, its worth doing a different test where you dont use that, and just use the main MIDI output settings in a MIDI track instead. Just to eliminate the possibility that its their External Instrument device thats causing the bottleneck.

[SteveElbows]

"Live's MPE implementation is unusual. The received MIDI channel is not stored in the sequence with the recorded events, but rather Live randomly assigns one of the MPE per-note channels on playback. This was a simpler way for them to implement MPE, but it has two problems:

Theres one advantage that I know of of doing dynamic channel allocation - MPE overdubbing where you play & record the notes into a clip in more than one pass. If you do that with a MPE controller in a system with no dynamic reallocation, there is obviously the risk that MPE pads you play in during subsequent record passes will use the same channels as some of the notes recorded in a previous pass, and if these overlap it will make a mess of the MPE expressivity data.

It is a big shame one of the issues you mention happens though, the inability to have the same note playing more than once simultaneously, that has implications for overdubbing too. In theory, if Im thinking about this properly, they could still offer the dynamic channel allocation and allow same notes, so long as the way notes are stored involves using a separate unique note etc event IDs in their internal data structure. I suppose its possible that the main reason this issue exists is as much to do with their user interface for the piano roll etc as it is underlying data structures - if they allow the same note more than once at any particular moment in time then they would also need to offer a way to see all of those notes on the piano roll, something that I dont think is compatible with their current UI design.

[zachaudioguy]

I use Ableton and I record LinnStrument midi often. I haven't experienced any slowing of the midi clock or lagging behind like you mention. However I do see a marked difference in what Ableton sends to a soft-synth in realtime vs what it records to midi, it mostly has to do with similar notes triggered on different rows. To mitigate this, I record midi using channel-per-row mode on the LS, mapping 8 midi channels to specific midi channel inputs and then routing all of their outputs to the soft-synth.

I'm on a PC, so my setup is probably not helpful to cover. FWIW I've found that external USB hubs and docking stations cause all sorts of issues when I plug my LS or audio interface into them.