"Solarstone - Release": how would you analyze the harmony?

[shawshawraw]

:'(

[Hink]

Wow. Thread has gone completely loony now. Suit yourself. Your life, your nightmares. I am fine. Banned from here by bullies or not.

And these "you will be next" outlaw biker-like threats do not bite on me. It is but threats of censorship and powerabuse telling most about him who threats. As if our inner thoughts could be censored and silenced as to our opinion on the way things are runned here. THAT won´t work if anything. Better find a reason to ban us for good, then.

I dont ban very often...grow a pair instead and dont ask me dirty work for you

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

How vulgar. You know where I stand on this generally. Just read our last PM exchange again. I see no success, Hink, on the contrary. Sad it is. As said, I have some music to do, and you are kind of the opposite of a muse, so I will split, so you can mod away and knock yourself out. Thread is yours. Enjoy.

[Hink]

Again it is painfully obvious the ploy has been to get me to backoff via harassment it hasnt worked and it wont work.

[dreamkeeper]

Again it is painfully obvious the ploy has been to get me to backoff via harassment it hasnt worked and it wont work.

Paranoid much? Ben really should think about whether it was a good idea to make you a moderator...

FWIW, your "7 words" could be read in a number of ways, most of which are neither positive nor constructive. I can fully understand that Jan felt attacked. And she's right: you're not doing your job.

Now ban me too, if it makes you feel better.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Again it is painfully obvious the ploy has been to get me to backoff via harassment it hasnt worked and it wont work.

Nope. By default, nothing is about you. We do not think about you, care, write or talk about you. You are not central to our lives unless you brute your way into them like you do now. And yes, your seven words were indeed ambigious tending towards the negative. Had to give up making sense of them myself. You had no reason to comment or mod anything at that point. There was no job to harress.

And for how long is Jan going to pay the price for your unprovoked ambiguity now? A week? A month? Several? Powerabuse this is. Tragic.

Maybe you should start listening to critique instead of just censor people for their opinions. Here is from the “Why did you leave KVR?-thread. Six thumbs:

There’s a moderator who has no idea how to be objective and runs it like his personal club.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=560090&start=15

Go figure.

[vurt]

not a great thread for "optics"

not sure why jan is suspended unless there's been lots deleted?

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

not sure why jan is suspended

Exactly

[N__K]

[...] runs it like his personal club.

TribeOfHǫfuð - with respect, I have to note that "runs it like a personal club" is also close to the feeling I got from you and jancivil in this Music Theory forum.




Specifically in this thread, I was observably triggered by the approach of "the track you posted is lame, have some Satie interpreted by me instead".

You and jancivil clearly do have considerable amounts of knowledge, and on that basis, justified authority in your areas of expertise. By accepting that role of authority, and asserting validity and applicability of methods you favor, you end up in role of educators - or tutors, at very least.

As I wrote to you in private, I am reasonably certain that many of potential learners in younger generations can only be motivated by an approach that starts from perspectives of the learner, not the educator. Only after that can the learner grasp the wonders created by masters of previous eras.

At least, that is what I have observed from interacting with my peers and juniors. For example, if they're into whatever Armin van Buuren is doing this year, it's unlikely that sheets from The Rite of Spring will get their attention, no matter how much I might personally enjoy studying the latter.




In other words, the very act of presenting Mozart, Satie or even Zappa as more notable than student's own musical heroes is part of what may drive away the learner. Saying that a piece of music favored by the learner is inferior just makes the potential student lock the mental door behind them, after running away.

A lot of traditional theory books and would-be educators make that mistake. I have seen the effects of it happen time after time - people running away from formal theoretical knowledge because its presentation and application is detached from music (and means of making it!) which the learner is interested in.



Regarding electronic genres, so far the only books [that I'm aware of] which try to adapt knowledge to the student instead of the other way around, are in Michael Hewitt's "for Computer Musicians" series. But one educator cannot be expected to be capable of fully adapting to, and keeping up with, the everchanging landscape of new genres.

That's where forum experts could come in. But the requirement of that is adapting to learners' needs. Which is, admittedly, very hard.

Granted, in this age a lot of adapted learning material is also available via Youtube and in private, paid courses. But I think that the long-form written format of forums is still relevant, too. At least, as someone interested in writing [text] as well as music, I hope that forums retain their utility in that regard.



Again, I have noted that you and jancivil have indeed made efforts towards the kind of guidance style I had hoped for. Many thanks to you both for that. And I actually do appreciate Satie, Zappa etc. - but in their own right, not as opposites to Solarstone.

And, for the record, in case anyone is wondering: I did not contact moderators about any of our interactions and disagreements. Like muting, it is something I have never done on any forum in my life thus far - nor do I intend to start doing so.



* * *


Not sure I can say anything more at this point, except perhaps this:

We may be from different parts of Neverland, but we're all still in Neverland. Or perhaps, on floating atolls, as in the movie Waterworld. Or in Fantasia, as in The Neverending Story.

Whatever one imagines the reality of music makers as - to a lot of non-music-maker onlookers, we're all living in a dreamworld. It's up to us to try build bridges and navigate routes between its islands - or, let it split into isolated factions, and risk some of them being destroyed by passage of time.

For whatever it is worth, part of my interest towards theory is that some of my generation's musical past is already being consumed by the langoliers; and by now I have become a historian and conservator as much as, if not more than, a music maker. I suspect many of us have similar feelings, and hope that it can provide some more common ground in future interactions, if any.



Sorry for the essay.

TL;DR: +1 to jancivil's unsuspension - as much as it may result in me getting a load of extra spicy peppers in my Earl Grey

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I got the tl dr, thx. I am not into textwalls, because an answer may require even more time than reading them. And Frankly, I think Jan is done here as to the topic. Just like me.

[N__K]

So a musical "feeling" can be formalized in harmonic functions? Like the good old fallacy that minor means sad and major happy? I would guide no one on such terms. OTOH if they asked me how a sus chord traditionally is used, I could teach them a few cadances, but that would not be in terms of feeling, but rather tension and resolvement by virtue of trivial staff notation. However, when I go percussion, the term "feeling" makes sense, but that regards the groove and time sig of the rhythm.

I've been thinking about replying to the emphasized part. In some way, it touches upon core aspects of the trance genre, which is topical in this thread - but it's interesting also in the bigger picture.

I'm not directing this post at you TribeOfHǫfuð as such, just reflecting on the question you asked. Originally I interpreted it as part of a rhetorical negation of some kind - due to the word "fallacy" having been written soon after it - and was somewhat blinded by that and some other things happening at the time. But now that the situation has cooled down, I'm finding a positive angle to that question.

Again, no new tension intended, nor does this post necessarily require "resolution via reply"



My answer, at this time, is: for pitch-based musical phenomena, the core of their musical effect can indeed be described in harmonic snapshots and/or functions. In case of melodies, the question becomes about density of the snapshots. And when the frequency content cannot be reduced to pitches, it becomes about spectral snapshots (spectrograms).

In other words, as long as it involves frequencies changing in time (be they harmonic or inharmonic or anything inbetween), taking "samples" of the spectrum at dense enough time intervals does provide information about the content.
To what extent it can be reduced for purposes of formalizing, classifying, etc. musical phenomena, so that it can later be used by human wetware as an aid in creating music, is whole another matter.

I think a separate thread about describing musical phenomena in symbolic representations vs. physics and math -based representations is forthcoming someday

[jancivil]

[...] runs it like his personal club.

TribeOfHǫfuð - with respect, I have to note that "runs it like a personal club" is also close to the feeling I got from you and jancivil in this Music Theory forum.

Specifically in this thread, I was observably triggered by the approach of "the track you posted is lame, have some Satie interpreted by me instead".

You and jancivil clearly do have considerable amounts of knowledge, and on that basis, justified authority in your areas of expertise. By accepting that role of authority, and asserting validity and applicability of methods you favor, you end up in role of educators - or tutors, at very least.

As I wrote to you in private, I am reasonably certain that many of potential learners in younger generations can only be motivated by an approach that starts from perspectives of the learner, not the educator. Only after that can the learner grasp the wonders created by masters of previous eras.

At least, that is what I have observed from interacting with my peers and juniors. For example, if they're into whatever Armin van Buuren is doing this year, it's unlikely that sheets from The Rite of Spring will get their attention, no matter how much I might personally enjoy studying the latter.




In other words, the very act of presenting Mozart, Satie or even Zappa as more notable than student's own musical heroes is part of what may drive away the learner. Saying that a piece of music favored by the learner is inferior just makes the potential student lock the mental door behind them, after running away.

A lot of traditional theory books and would-be educators make that mistake. I have seen the effects of it happen time after time - people running away from formal theoretical knowledge because its presentation and application is detached from music (and means of making it!) which the learner is interested in.



Regarding electronic genres, so far the only books [that I'm aware of] which try to adapt knowledge to the student instead of the other way around, are in Michael Hewitt's "for Computer Musicians" series. But one educator cannot be expected to be capable of fully adapting to, and keeping up with, the everchanging landscape of new genres.

That's where forum experts could come in. But the requirement of that is adapting to learners' needs. Which is, admittedly, very hard.

Granted, in this age a lot of adapted learning material is also available via Youtube and in private, paid courses. But I think that the long-form written format of forums is still relevant, too. At least, as someone interested in writing [text] as well as music, I hope that forums retain their utility in that regard.



Again, I have noted that you and jancivil have indeed made efforts towards the kind of guidance style I had hoped for. Many thanks to you both for that. And I actually do appreciate Satie, Zappa etc. - but in their own right, not as opposites to Solarstone.

And, for the record, in case anyone is wondering: I did not contact moderators about any of our interactions and disagreements. Like muting, it is something I have never done on any forum in my life thus far - nor do I intend to start doing so.



* * *


Not sure I can say anything more at this point, except perhaps this:

We may be from different parts of Neverland, but we're all still in Neverland. Or perhaps, on floating atolls, as in the movie Waterworld. Or in Fantasia, as in The Neverending Story.

Whatever one imagines the reality of music makers as - to a lot of non-music-maker onlookers, we're all living in a dreamworld. It's up to us to try build bridges and navigate routes between its islands - or, let it split into isolated factions, and risk some of them being destroyed by passage of time.

For whatever it is worth, part of my interest towards theory is that some of my generation's musical past is already being consumed by the langoliers; and by now I have become a historian and conservator as much as, if not more than, a music maker. I suspect many of us have similar feelings, and hope that it can provide some more common ground in future interactions, if any.



Sorry for the essay.

TL;DR: +1 to jancivil's unsuspension - as much as it may result in me getting a load of extra spicy peppers in my Earl Grey
[/quote]

[jancivil]

[...] runs it like his personal club.

TribeOfHǫfuð - with respect, I have to note that "runs it like a personal club" is also close to the feeling I got from you and jancivil in this Music Theory forum.

So because a couple of people who appear friendly to one another agree that your posting is unimpressive - and makes fundamental errors of fact - it makes us equal to a moderator who can and will ban a person for disagreeing with him.
ohhhhk then. I don't care for you either.

Specifically in this thread, I was observably triggered by the approach of "the track you posted is lame, have some Satie interpreted by me instead".

Oh well. You could take remarks in stride and realize what's happening, but what we found was someone being argumentative and trying to be right about a rather silly assertion, which btfw you'd done before I'd even heard the track. I was here correcting things which mislead people. One might note the difference between presenting that youtube and the demonstration of the concept from my own work with it. I presented quartal harmony beyond all doubt, it's not interpretative, the score shows you the harmonies.

You and jancivil clearly do have considerable amounts of knowledge, and on that basis, justified authority in your areas of expertise. By accepting that role of authority, and asserting validity and applicability of methods you favor, you end up in role of educators - or tutors, at very least.

Really? I asserted something valid and made it work, demonstrating it. I am not using myself as any appeal to authority, that's for sure. I don't assert a thing being unable to demonstrate it, another thing you might learn from instead of this effort to impugn my integrity acting like I owe somebody something by daring to have my shit together.

As I wrote to you in private,

it's not private anymore, is it?*

I am reasonably certain that many of potential learners in younger generations can only be motivated by an approach that starts from perspectives of the learner, not the educator. Only after that can the learner grasp the wonders created by masters of previous eras.

At least, that is what I have observed from interacting with my peers and juniors. For example, if they're into whatever Armin van Buuren is doing this year, it's unlikely that sheets from The Rite of Spring will get their attention, no matter how much I might personally enjoy studying the latter.

It's unlikely a grown-ass person that's still listening to dross like that is going to have the interest.
It's just not my job.

In other words,
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah

[...]by now I have become a historian and conservator as much as, if not more than, a music maker. I suspect many of us have similar feelings, and hope that it can provide some more common ground in future interactions, if any.

Well you feel free to self-portray as that, if that's really a thing for you I must say you're frankly pretty impoverished at it.
I'm not a "theorist", I'm a practical musician.
As to 'asserting validity and applicability' - I demonstrated what applies. *You showed your ass. I didn't post from Neverland, that was just you. I'm not like you really at all.