Do I need to know more music theory than this for songwriting?

[HREQ]

Hi, I've been learning theory on and off, I always thought there must be a huge amount I don't know, but I think with:
Scales, Tonal Harmony, Modes, Modal interchange, Borrowing chords, secondary dominant, modulation with 2-5-1s

that it's enough, I don't see many songs on the radio using more than just aeolian / ionian with some secondary dominants (sometimes) m ostly it's just the straight scale

[Erisian]

I learned a lot of music theory when I learned to play the flute and had to play classical music but when I took up the guitar and started writing songs, music theory was useless. I just learned how to play the most important chords and then used my imagination for the rest.

[vurt]

you use what you have, then if something doesnt work, or something unexpected does work, then you look for answers.

theory! is a foundation to work on, your basics.
then you use what you need, when you need it.

the idea is key.
i have this idea!
what do i need to do to realise this idea?

[GuyLacome]

Exactly what the past poster said: can you put an idea in your head to paper? If you can - you're good. If you're struggling - you need more theory. Also just because most pop songs end up with simple progressions, doesn't mean they were written that way. It's about what you can bring to the table when you're in the room trying to come up with an idea. Theory will never hurt you, you might not need it often, but you'll always be valuable when/if you can draw on these resources.

[BONES]

I know absolutely no music theory, beyond how to form a basic chord, and I've written a hundred songs or more. I know what I like, I know what sounds right and that seems to have been enough.

[Farnaby]

You don't need any theory to compose, but understanding the theory will help expand your musical palette and offer alternatives. Theory simply describes what is there, it isn't the starting point for making music.

[paradiso]

Whether you need more than that or not solely depends on what do you want to achieve with your compositions. If you want to write standard pop/rock, that's way more than enough. If you want to write a symphony, or just dive deep into jazz, you might want to go deeper. But again, the key question is: are you able to write want you want with the theory tools you have? If yes, than you're good.

[strangersun]

Just keep making things and doing your best to grow in the way that you want along the way. It's fascinating to me when I read or listen to an interview with a musician I admire and they talk about not knowing any music theory. It can help if you want to learn about it, but you can get a lot done by just making things that sound good to you.

[jancivil]

"they talk about not knowing any music theory"
the musician that is actually creating music that knows nothing would seem to be rather anomalous.

anybody that's worked out how your 12-bar blues of E, A, E, B, A, E and a turnaround works the same as G, C, G, D, C, G and a turnaround
has done music theory, whether or not they write about it.

none of us here can tell anybody else what's enough for the other person.
and there's not likely anybody that knows all of it for all musics

[ayndryw]

Yeah, learn more, it's great. Sometimes the best thing for a "simple" pop song will be to insert an obscure altered chord or chromatic voice leading.

[Stamped Records]

Exactly what the past poster said: can you put an idea in your head to paper? If you can - you're good.

This! A friend of mine once asked me what the best advice I could give him about music was, because I'd studied theory a bit more than he had, and my best advice for him was to learn to name his chords. If you can name your chords, you can write the music on paper and I think this is vital.

Personally, I'm a songwriter now but I approached music as an electronic musician, so I'm probably in a minority of people who learned to play over a period of time, using only theory. This puts me in a category of people who find theory very valuable.

I'll just mention a few things that you didn't mention, since you're asking, although these things might go without saying.

Slash chords - bass note not the root of the chord. Eg. Minor 9 under a major triad or a minor 7th under a minor triad.
Sustained chords - nice effect when used as passing chord. Fsus2b5 > F or Gsus4 > G.
Substitute chords - probably covered under tonal harmony. iii for I, ii for IV.

Personally I'm a fan of the basics of music theory. It's hard to beat the sound of D, C, G with the Amen cadence (I much prefer the sound of IV > I over the sound of V > I but I like to give things a little twist away from the basics and I aim to have as many options for that twist as possible.

Yeah, learn more, it's great. Sometimes the best thing for a "simple" pop song will be to insert an obscure altered chord or chromatic voice leading.

This too! I'm always looking for something that is a little off. I tend to seek things that aren't in any keys. Most recently, I realised that none of the 7 modes have a major chord with a minor 6th, and this led me to discover the Harmonic Major scale and all of it's modes.

[je_802]

i think it depends on what your goal is with the music you make. in my opinion if you're selling your music/aiming to become a professional you should always be refining your knowledge since theory boosts efficiency/quality. at the end of the day though, the most important thing is exploring and expanding on your unique musical ideas because thats something that only you can do; if learning the nitty gritty of musical theory is somehow impeding that then i'd say there are some questions you should ask yourself about what it is you most value

[thunder1677]

This subject is very subjective. You don’t have to know theory really to write a song. Some bands just create songs by ear.

[Farnaby]

This subject is very subjective.

Well fancy that!

[fairlyclose]

There is no music theory - there are music theories. Just as there is no way to compose, there are many ways.
Being ignorant is seldom an advantage.
You need to find the tools and gain the skills to do what you want to do
You can never have all the tools or gain all the skills