This is quite an interesting question. I had read this thread before, and basically understood the argument in favor of the tritone layout, but now that I've spent a little time checking it out further, I have some more thoughts.
The most obvious benefit, for me anyway (and particularly for two handed piano style playing) is that it does largely mitigate the "square shape" problem, which is no small thing in terms of coming to terms with two handed playing. I still run into it (as I did real time when making the video). I have mostly gotten used to it, but man, would it be nice if that weren't an issue. So that is a very big check mark on the side of going with the tritone layout.
There are other good arguments in terms of ease of scale conceptualization, etc. (many of which are mentioned in the above thread). However, many of these are personal taste, in my opinion. I also think for players who tend to stick with 3 fingers, the 4th layout is easier in many ways. But again, it gets into personal taste, usage requirements, etc.
As far as my video goes, just in terms of actually playing the shapes (leaving aside the "square shape" problem), I still prefer the 4th layout. I don't find I have to twist my hand much, if any, to make the shapes, and actually find the stacked 4th in the right hand to be less optimal with the tritone layout for a number of reasons. One of them is that I often extend that stack (to other "non fourth" notes, up and to the right of the stack) with my pinky and ring finger. This becomes impossible if you use the pinky-ring-middle fingering. So you would need to use a relatively more awkward "thumb-index-middle" fingering, and then hitting the extensions becomes challenging. Not that this couldn't be overcome, but again, as it is, I find the stacked fourth generally easier in the 4th layout The stacked 5ths are marginally easier in the tritone layout, but not all that significantly for me.
Another thing that I really like about the fourth layout, is that when using 5 fingers, one can roll right up the pads chromatically (the row above is a half step above the 5th note if you are playing all the notes chromatically). I am coming to the conclusion that to get the most power out of the LinnStrument (if replacing the keyboard layout is your desire), all five fingers eventually have to come into play. I am working on a layout where my left hand is confined to a five note across area on the left side (in a split layout), and the fact that it all flows chromatically up the pads makes this much easier to implement and conceptualize. Also, playing scales with all five fingers moving up the pads is an interesting approach which I am experimenting with, and it only makes sense with this chromatic continuation between rows.
However, obviously this five fingered approach is not the the norm (to say the least) among current LinnStrument players, so it could be argued that these points may turn out to be something of a dead end in terms of the user base. Time will tell.
Another critique of my position could be that it is simply "confirmation bias." Maybe I am looking too hard for excuses not to have to spend the time to re-learn aspects of playing the instrument.
In any event, I can certainly understand why someone would prefer the tritone layout. And when the "square problem" is considered, it becomes quite a compelling argument indeed, particularly for two-handed, improvised playing.
Perfect Layout
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John the Savage John the Savage https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=396119
- KVRian
- 830 posts since 28 Mar, 2017
I don't think so. And the proof is in the proficiency with which you play.
In my opinion, as per the argument I put forth earlier in this thread, the "perfect layout" is the one you understand, connect with, and are ultimately compelled to use. Period. The more this debate wages on, the clearer that point becomes. Every tuning scheme has its pros and cons, and there's simply no sidestepping the work it takes to become a proficient player regardless. This has been true of every instrument throughout history, and holds true with the LinnStrument.
So, again I say, to anyone still scratching their head - pick one, and practice, practice, practice...
Someone here made the rather bold claim, a while back, that "the guitar tuning isn't all that useful, because you cannot play the LinnStrument like a guitar...". That's an interesting perspective, if a little misguided; nevertheless, I invite this person to throw down in whatever tuning scheme they prefer, but they better bring their A-game.
Cheers!
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- KVRist
- 82 posts since 5 Apr, 2011
This 'someone' would rather make a bold claim pretending the guitar tuning is useful to him.Someone here made the rather bold claim, a while back, that "the guitar tuning isn't all that useful, because you cannot play the LinnStrument like a guitar...". That's an interesting perspective, if a little misguided; nevertheless, I invite this person to throw down in whatever tuning scheme they prefer, but they better bring their A-game.
I play guitar for more than half a century and of course I tried to play the LinnStrument like a guitar. And while the guitar tuning of course looks familiar it isn't of much use because (even with guitar straps) you can not hold the LS like a guitar (sure YMMV).
The genius of the guitar tuning is the major third between the G and B strings, bringing the top two strings in accordance to the bottom strings.
This greatly simplifies playing because easy use of open strings and enables techniques like barre-chords, pulling-off and hammer-on. Little of this applies to the LS, so why bother.
So to answer your question: I usually stay with the 4th tuning or I use the User-Mode and some custom software to play in any tuning and scale I dare to imagine. The consistency of Pitchbending is then broken but I take this any day for the resulting benefits
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John the Savage John the Savage https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=396119
- KVRian
- 830 posts since 28 Mar, 2017
Again, what does playing the LinnStrument "like a guitar" (whatever that even means) have to do with the point I've been making since the first comment I made in this thread? My point is dead simple...
Every tuning scheme presents equal challenges. So, if you want to become truly proficient at playing the LinnStrument, as you would any other instrument, pick one and practice. To that end, damn straight the guitar tuning is useful to me, 30 years a professional guitarist, and I guarantee that I can navigate it as easily as anyone using the tritone tuning, or any other tuning scheme for that matter. But it has nothing to do with the arrangement of the notes, and everything to do with the fact that I have dedicated myself to it, and continue to develop a repertoire around it.
I started this conversation in a perfectly good mood, with genuine interest, and said nothing to deter people from experimenting if that's what interests them. As always, however, I chose to flatter my colleagues with the assumption that they are actual musicians, and aspire to push themselves in that respect, as good musicians do. Why? Well, because in so far as the LinnStrument is concerned, which was designed first-and-foremost to facilitate virtuosity, what the hell else would constitute the "perfect layout", if not one's ability to perform proficiently on it?
Surely the tuning scheme matters not for the two-finger, hunt-and-peck, modular blippity-bloop that we so often see around here? No offense to anyone engaging in that vernacular of music or otherwise having fun with their LinnStrument; but I was under the impression that we were talking about the advantages and disadvantages of playing the LinnStrument, not poking at it.
You, doc, have managed to get on my nerves with your vaguely argumentative yet ambiguous tone. I apologized to you, a while back, when I thought I'd unwittingly offended you... But, frankly, I no longer care. You clearly know what you're doing—smearing vegetable oil on your LinnStrument and playing mystery modes in esoteric tunings—so good luck to you.
To everyone else, I’m sorry you had to witness this outburst, but seriously… Argh!
Cheers!
Every tuning scheme presents equal challenges. So, if you want to become truly proficient at playing the LinnStrument, as you would any other instrument, pick one and practice. To that end, damn straight the guitar tuning is useful to me, 30 years a professional guitarist, and I guarantee that I can navigate it as easily as anyone using the tritone tuning, or any other tuning scheme for that matter. But it has nothing to do with the arrangement of the notes, and everything to do with the fact that I have dedicated myself to it, and continue to develop a repertoire around it.
I started this conversation in a perfectly good mood, with genuine interest, and said nothing to deter people from experimenting if that's what interests them. As always, however, I chose to flatter my colleagues with the assumption that they are actual musicians, and aspire to push themselves in that respect, as good musicians do. Why? Well, because in so far as the LinnStrument is concerned, which was designed first-and-foremost to facilitate virtuosity, what the hell else would constitute the "perfect layout", if not one's ability to perform proficiently on it?
Surely the tuning scheme matters not for the two-finger, hunt-and-peck, modular blippity-bloop that we so often see around here? No offense to anyone engaging in that vernacular of music or otherwise having fun with their LinnStrument; but I was under the impression that we were talking about the advantages and disadvantages of playing the LinnStrument, not poking at it.
You, doc, have managed to get on my nerves with your vaguely argumentative yet ambiguous tone. I apologized to you, a while back, when I thought I'd unwittingly offended you... But, frankly, I no longer care. You clearly know what you're doing—smearing vegetable oil on your LinnStrument and playing mystery modes in esoteric tunings—so good luck to you.
To everyone else, I’m sorry you had to witness this outburst, but seriously… Argh!
Cheers!
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- KVRist
- 82 posts since 5 Apr, 2011
...yeah, go on on your OneUpmanship-trip if that's all you care about!... witness this outburst, but seriously… Argh!
*YOU* are calling me out. And I took the time to answer your questions.
But obviously *YOU* know what a musician is, *YOU* know what a musician must do or what disqualifies someone as a musician (or even a sensible human being), *YOU* are the brightest bulb in the box!
But not even noticing if you contradict yourself within a few sentences:
No! definitely No! Not every tuning scheme presents equal challenges. Period!Every tuning scheme presents equal challenges.......what the hell else would constitute the "perfect layout", if not one's ability to perform proficiently on it?
Isn't that why you asked in the first place??
This had to be said, but now lets move on, I don't have the time to squander my remaining years with shit like this!
To everyone else, I’m sorry you had to witness this outburst, but seriously… Argh!
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John the Savage John the Savage https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=396119
- KVRian
- 830 posts since 28 Mar, 2017
Ha, I actually believe that, Andy. 
Cheers!
Cheers!
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- KVRAF
- 1558 posts since 2 Apr, 2015
If only it was true
Bitwig, against the constitution.
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- KVRer
- 7 posts since 20 Dec, 2021
I’ve only had my LinnStrument for a few days, but I come at it from a lot of experience playing not only piano, guitar and mandolin, but also harpejji and chromatic button accordion.
To my way of thinking the LinnStrument is most like those last two, both of which have the characteristic that touch-wise, no matter where you are on the instrument, it feels the same. People put down the piano a lot because every key has a different feel and set of fingerings, but it is precisely because of this that the instrument can be performed on so fluently without ever having to look at it.
It’s probably possible to play the LinnStrument without looking at it, but I wager most people are keeping their eyes on the playing surface the whole time. I know there are little dimples on strategic buttons to assist in feel, just like the “C” button on the left hand of an accordion had a little rhinestone in it, but because the LinnStrument can be so easily customized the dimples are not of much use.
Much has been said here about how you should find the tuning you like and practice the hell out of it. I may end up eating my words eventually, but I say a better approach towards mastering the instrument is to master a wide variety of tunings, practicing the hell out of all of them, because it all really comes down to a matter of finger agility while keeping your eyes on the LED’s.
When I first stumbled on tritone tuning I was instantly charmed by how much it made the instrument appear like stacked piano keys, one row B-F the next F-B with one row having two sharps, the next three - very keyboard like.
However, from having played the chromatic button accordion, where buttons are stacked in minor 3rds, I discovered I could play with greater speed and accuracy if I tried that tuning instead. It didn’t look as elegant as tritone, but it played much easier and faster, everything is close and there are multiple ways to voice scales and chords. The disadvantage is range but you can program the side buttons to shift octaves anyway so that’s not really a problem.
I have been trying numerous tunings and have come to the conclusion that in terms of musical creativity, they all have merit, some, such as tunings in 4ths & 5ths encourage more harmonic playing while 3rds and 6ths are a bit more melodic. 2nds and 7ths even have their own virtues (as a harpejji player I’m used to the major 2nd tuning of the instrument and it works fine).
I realize I have a long way to go to master this controller, and it very well may happen that I settle into a favorite tuning, but as one of the chief virtues of this instrument is its ability to reconfigure itself in so many different ways (something you can’t do with a harpejji or an accordion) I think it’s limiting to concentrate on one tuning in an attempt to find the “best” one. There is no best one. Let the music suggest the tuning, OR, the tuning suggest the music if, like me, you’re using the playing surface as a way to generate creative musical thoughts.
If you’re going to set anything as “best,” I think it may be more important to set the display in a consistent way and stick with that. I’ve set my LinnStrument to only display sharps (aka “black keys”) and no accent notes. In this way I can instantly see where everything is regardless of tuning.
To my way of thinking the LinnStrument is most like those last two, both of which have the characteristic that touch-wise, no matter where you are on the instrument, it feels the same. People put down the piano a lot because every key has a different feel and set of fingerings, but it is precisely because of this that the instrument can be performed on so fluently without ever having to look at it.
It’s probably possible to play the LinnStrument without looking at it, but I wager most people are keeping their eyes on the playing surface the whole time. I know there are little dimples on strategic buttons to assist in feel, just like the “C” button on the left hand of an accordion had a little rhinestone in it, but because the LinnStrument can be so easily customized the dimples are not of much use.
Much has been said here about how you should find the tuning you like and practice the hell out of it. I may end up eating my words eventually, but I say a better approach towards mastering the instrument is to master a wide variety of tunings, practicing the hell out of all of them, because it all really comes down to a matter of finger agility while keeping your eyes on the LED’s.
When I first stumbled on tritone tuning I was instantly charmed by how much it made the instrument appear like stacked piano keys, one row B-F the next F-B with one row having two sharps, the next three - very keyboard like.
However, from having played the chromatic button accordion, where buttons are stacked in minor 3rds, I discovered I could play with greater speed and accuracy if I tried that tuning instead. It didn’t look as elegant as tritone, but it played much easier and faster, everything is close and there are multiple ways to voice scales and chords. The disadvantage is range but you can program the side buttons to shift octaves anyway so that’s not really a problem.
I have been trying numerous tunings and have come to the conclusion that in terms of musical creativity, they all have merit, some, such as tunings in 4ths & 5ths encourage more harmonic playing while 3rds and 6ths are a bit more melodic. 2nds and 7ths even have their own virtues (as a harpejji player I’m used to the major 2nd tuning of the instrument and it works fine).
I realize I have a long way to go to master this controller, and it very well may happen that I settle into a favorite tuning, but as one of the chief virtues of this instrument is its ability to reconfigure itself in so many different ways (something you can’t do with a harpejji or an accordion) I think it’s limiting to concentrate on one tuning in an attempt to find the “best” one. There is no best one. Let the music suggest the tuning, OR, the tuning suggest the music if, like me, you’re using the playing surface as a way to generate creative musical thoughts.
If you’re going to set anything as “best,” I think it may be more important to set the display in a consistent way and stick with that. I’ve set my LinnStrument to only display sharps (aka “black keys”) and no accent notes. In this way I can instantly see where everything is regardless of tuning.
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- KVRist
- 142 posts since 5 Jan, 2022
Also only had my Linnstrument for a very short time, but you nailed it IMO. I found a similar thing with guitar, fwiw. It was only *after* playing alternate tunings that I got a grasp for what was good and bad about standard tuning and when it was appropriate. And relying solely on fixed shapes and patterns isn't really developing a deep understanding of what is happening, it's only muscle memory. Of course, that's important, but honestly the Linnstrument is so playable that I am finding that I can easily adjust to different shapes and walk freely around the keyboard.Aardman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:31 am I have been trying numerous tunings and have come to the conclusion that in terms of musical creativity, they all have merit, some, such as tunings in 4ths & 5ths encourage more harmonic playing while 3rds and 6ths are a bit more melodic. 2nds and 7ths even have their own virtues (as a harpejji player I’m used to the major 2nd tuning of the instrument and it works fine).
I realize I have a long way to go to master this controller, and it very well may happen that I settle into a favorite tuning, but as one of the chief virtues of this instrument is its ability to reconfigure itself in so many different ways (something you can’t do with a harpejji or an accordion) I think it’s limiting to concentrate on one tuning in an attempt to find the “best” one. There is no best one.
In that respect it is very different from guitar where the strength and dexterity needed to find a shape means that you can't just easily move about between chord transitions and voicings. (I'm just getting to the point where I can walk open chords around, I certainly can't do it barred.) But like guitar I'm discovering how much of musical language comes out of the unique arrangement of notes. What comes naturally to hand or dances out of your fingers determines a lot about the sense of music. One of the great joys of learning guitars was seeing how so much of the songs that I love come tumbling out of the basic guitar design. As a simple example, the way you use your pinky to trill D to Dsus. That's great, but it is also limiting. A lot of great music (Joni Mitchell comes to mind, or look up Dave Wakeling talking about how he landed on DADAAD for "Save it for Later"*) comes from playing outside of the sandbox.
So I'm excited to see what tumbles out of the Liunnstrument for people and I think part of that will be not getting stuck on one "correct" way of doing things.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTHbUstBHp8
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- KVRer
- 22 posts since 4 Aug, 2021
I have owned my Linnstrument for little over a week, so my two cents FWIW. I have been playing guitar for over 25 years and play a little piano. I agree that all tunings have pros and cons, and there is no one perfect tuning.
I see and play the LS diagonally. On guitar, I mainly use the three-note-per-string concept. I dove into the concept by @LarsDaniel here and found out I can play any diatonic scale (i.e. all church modes) with fingers 2, 3 and 4, and the fourth note with finger 1 or 5. This is such a cool expansion to 3NPS, and playing diagonally you can go through many octaves.
This 3NPS concept also translates really well into chords. I am still figuring out all the fingerings and making diagrams of it.
I am now also trying out +6-tuning, because I am appealing by the clear layout. Stacking triads with this layout is amazingly simple. I feel there is too much stretching involved in melody playing with +6, whereas it is just right with +5 (at least for my hands). Conversely, +4 tuning has too much horizontal movement to my liking. In addition, I am very comfortable with the +5-tuning because of guitar, so using +6 would require a lot more study.
In the end, most layouts are fine and would just take a lot of practice.
I see and play the LS diagonally. On guitar, I mainly use the three-note-per-string concept. I dove into the concept by @LarsDaniel here and found out I can play any diatonic scale (i.e. all church modes) with fingers 2, 3 and 4, and the fourth note with finger 1 or 5. This is such a cool expansion to 3NPS, and playing diagonally you can go through many octaves.
This 3NPS concept also translates really well into chords. I am still figuring out all the fingerings and making diagrams of it.
I am now also trying out +6-tuning, because I am appealing by the clear layout. Stacking triads with this layout is amazingly simple. I feel there is too much stretching involved in melody playing with +6, whereas it is just right with +5 (at least for my hands). Conversely, +4 tuning has too much horizontal movement to my liking. In addition, I am very comfortable with the +5-tuning because of guitar, so using +6 would require a lot more study.
In the end, most layouts are fine and would just take a lot of practice.
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- KVRist
- 142 posts since 5 Jan, 2022
As mentioned in related music theory post, I’m finding myself gravitating toward +6, which is - ignore everything I said above - objectively the best layout of all.richwombat19 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:34 pm I am now also trying out +6-tuning, because I am appealing by the clear layout. Stacking triads with this layout is amazingly simple. I feel there is too much stretching involved in melody playing with +6, whereas it is just right with +5 (at least for my hands). Conversely, +4 tuning has too much horizontal movement to my liking. In addition, I am very comfortable with the +5-tuning because of guitar, so using +6 would require a lot more study.
Ahem.. anyway.. I’d initially started reading this thread before I got linnstrument but deliberately put it to back of my mind so I could freely explore without preconceptions of what was “perfect”.
The initial attraction of +6 was its visual elegance and the way it provides a coherent map for improvisation. Up and down are octaves, diaganols are fifths. Inversions are childs play of course. Sure I can translate that to fourths but it takes one layer of thought out and makes the connection totally direct. Plus all the other benefits others have mentioned above. I’m also persuaded by argument that some of the things that make fourths better for guitar are much less relevant for linnstrument.
That said, WRT guitar scales, I also use 3nps on guitar and realized all three positions are exactly the same if you simply project them diagonally. That seems to work ergonomically too. The X-O-X-O-X position is too much of a stretch for me to be able fluently while keeping my hand static, but the other two seem to work nicely. But as you note it’s nice to be able to have that extra finger, it gives more flexibility.
I’m still not sure 3nps is always the best option in 6. I’ve found I can play complex melody lines that move across octaves (I’m messing around with the Bach cello suite #1 rn) better by anchoring my thumb at root and utilizing different finger positions, touch typing style, but without being excessively rigid about it. I imagine that there are some runs that would be faster on fourths but personally my fingers get in the way of each other more. Having those extra checkerboard spaces is actually good for me.
Last edited by MilesParker on Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 2492 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Hi all— I’m enjoying watching this fascinating conversation.
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- KVRist
- 142 posts since 5 Jan, 2022
Glad to hear that Roger. For me it is really gratifying and exciting to contribute what little I can to discussion from perspective of newbie. I do think fresh perspectives help regardless of skill and knowledge. If nothing else the community discovers what needs to be worked-out or at least explained better.
I've been reflecting on what a unique and rare opportunity it is to even be a fly on the wall at the beginning of a new paradigm for music, when everything hasn't been nailed down and there is a universally accepted "right way" to do things. (e.g. finger position on piano.) I am not exaggerating when I say the shift is on par with when the pianoforte was replacing the harpsichord (expression) or even the discovery of equal temperament.
Apropos that, I wanted to add that also unlike guitar a focus on ability to have fast runs and resulting implication that near notes should be as close as possible may not necessarily hold. For a guitar, a static neck grip determines that and is part of why 3NPS works so well. There is expression from bends and slides as well as hammer ons and pull offs as well as seperation of pick hand attack from chord hand strumming, neck location for pick and note emphasis on chords, but in general it follows single note (or two if you count double stops). All of that implies that rapid on/off is more important than subtle nuances of pressure and finger position.
Contrast that with Linnstrument, where an ideal finger pattern for a given chord or run would allow you to vary all notes independently across all three axes. To me that argues for a layout that encourages more open shapes; if your fingers are all bunched up together it makes it much harder or almost impossible for me at least to say do vibrato on one note while others remain steady. So I think a "good" layout would be more of a balance between these two constraints.
At risk of being a 6+ chauvinist haha, I do think that it supports getting your fingers in an open tripod configuration, which is naturally more stable for moving fingers independently for a given position with added benefit of supporting you to lift one or two fingers and move them to another location (ala walking from chord to chord on guitar) while keeping other fingers in same orientation.
To me, nuance is at least as important as speed -- I appreciate Greg Allman far more than Joe Satriani.
[edit] I'll try to work up a short video where I can maybe demonstrate what I mean.
I've been reflecting on what a unique and rare opportunity it is to even be a fly on the wall at the beginning of a new paradigm for music, when everything hasn't been nailed down and there is a universally accepted "right way" to do things. (e.g. finger position on piano.) I am not exaggerating when I say the shift is on par with when the pianoforte was replacing the harpsichord (expression) or even the discovery of equal temperament.
Apropos that, I wanted to add that also unlike guitar a focus on ability to have fast runs and resulting implication that near notes should be as close as possible may not necessarily hold. For a guitar, a static neck grip determines that and is part of why 3NPS works so well. There is expression from bends and slides as well as hammer ons and pull offs as well as seperation of pick hand attack from chord hand strumming, neck location for pick and note emphasis on chords, but in general it follows single note (or two if you count double stops). All of that implies that rapid on/off is more important than subtle nuances of pressure and finger position.
Contrast that with Linnstrument, where an ideal finger pattern for a given chord or run would allow you to vary all notes independently across all three axes. To me that argues for a layout that encourages more open shapes; if your fingers are all bunched up together it makes it much harder or almost impossible for me at least to say do vibrato on one note while others remain steady. So I think a "good" layout would be more of a balance between these two constraints.
At risk of being a 6+ chauvinist haha, I do think that it supports getting your fingers in an open tripod configuration, which is naturally more stable for moving fingers independently for a given position with added benefit of supporting you to lift one or two fingers and move them to another location (ala walking from chord to chord on guitar) while keeping other fingers in same orientation.
To me, nuance is at least as important as speed -- I appreciate Greg Allman far more than Joe Satriani.
[edit] I'll try to work up a short video where I can maybe demonstrate what I mean.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8839 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
For me 6+ just feels natural. But I could not have been able to argue better than you did. Good to know, that this is also attractive for someone who comes from a guitar experience. In the end a LinnStrument is really not a guitar and not a piano and not an accordion, its different and it will need its own time to find the most natural and easy way to be played…MilesParker wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:02 pm At risk of being a 6+ chauvinist haha, I do think that it supports getting your fingers in an open tripod configuration, which is naturally more stable for moving fingers independently for a given position with added benefit of supporting you to lift one or two fingers and move them to another location (ala walking from chord to chord on guitar) while keeping other fingers in same orientation.
To me, nuance is at least as important as speed -- I appreciate Greg Allman far more than Joe Satriani.
[edit] I'll try to work up a short video where I can maybe demonstrate what I mean.
I simply need to get into the habit to practice more regularly instead of just noodling around…; - )
