KVR Audio

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:53 pm

Urs wrote:You could also add a range parameter that clamps the effect of the ModWheel. I think Dave Smith did that in the OB-6 so that the modulation starts at a min value. Then, ModWheel brings it up to the max value set by the patch designer.

This way the patch designer can limit the modulation amount within the musical boundaries it's meant to be used.

Actually we have trimpots for that on the back panel, as far as the max value is concerned. But they were meant mostly to account for part tolerances and such, so not sure their range is large enough.

Richard

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:33 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:Three minor suggestions:
- since there are only two effects anyway, replace the common Effects on/off by Delay on/off and Reverb on/off switches (abbreviated DL and RV they would consume little more space)
- add the mono mode switch (i.e. with and without retriggering) to the Polyphany control on the main panel, there is enough space for an additional option on that control
- add a space between ENV and AMT ^^

Good suggestions! The missing space in the label will be fixed right away, about the other two suggestions we'll have to see if we can fit that in the RE, if possible we want to keep the RE/VST/AU look compatible.

Richard

Chris-S · Post by **Chris-S** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:57 am

The Amp Saturation does not seem to saturate much, compared to the filter saturation.
Intended so?

fluffy_little_something · Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:42 pm

I have never played a Minimoog, but I am wondering if it makes those occasional high-frequency blip sounds in the attack as well. Is it the result of free-running oscillators? Or some retrigger issue with the filter envelope? I suppose the latter as I don't hear the blip in legato mode, except when I don't play legato in legato mode.
I know that blip from many synths including Dune and never really liked it, but who knows, maybe it is normal...

Mutant · Post by **Mutant** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:21 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:blip

Can you post a sound example of that phenomenon ?

fluffy_little_something · Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:47 pm

I used a very simple patch with very low filter cutoff so that it becomes more obvious. As you can hear (especially on headphones), there are occasional, inconsistent blips during the attack.

https://app.box.com/s/jwsi7grukls50vs0uq0tzhefurq9b1ki

Again, I am not sure if that blip is supposed to be there or not. I just don't like it...

Although it is a rather different type of synth, Sylenth1 doesn't make those blips, which might be one reason why I like its envelopes so much, they produce a clean attack.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:51 pm

That is called "oscillator phase".

Try and use a sine wave on a synth which has an option to set fixed phase, and adjust the sine wave's phase, to see how clicky it can get on certain settings. If the envelopes of said synth are fast enough for that, of course. Some aren't. Sylenth1 can do this for example.

A synth like Legend which has free-running oscillators will have that inconsistency, because the phase is different on every note you play.

fluffy_little_something · Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:57 pm

As far as I can tell, it is worst with pulse waves on most synths.

Yes, I also think phase might be a possible reason, which is why I asked about the free-running property.

So, is it there on a hardware Minimoog as well?

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:01 pm

It should be, as the Minimoog's oscillators are free-running (are there even fixed phase analog oscillators? Not sure if that is technically possible).

BTW, Sylenth1 should have the same behavior when the osc's are not set to "Retrig", but, on some soft synths, it's just not there, because the envelopes are too slow (as far as i know). Z3TA or Spire surely have this behavior too, when the osc's are set to free-running.

Edit: Just tried this in Sylenth1, and it hardly clicks. Seems like the envelopes are just too slow. I know for sure that Dune CM, and Electra2 don't click either. TBH, i always find that a little lame, because those kind of clicks can be very musical for me.

Not sure why Sylenth1 doesn't do it though, i always was under the impression that those envelopes are fast enough. Maybe it does have to do with other things.

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:32 pm

The clicking's not just from the envelopes, though. With free running oscillators, if you hit the key when the oscillator wave isn't at or near a zero crossing, you will get a discontinuity. The amplitude of the sound goes from nothing to something in very, very little time and so you get a burst of high frequency energy, which sound like a click. You can see this effect for yourself by sampling a sine wave and moving the start point away from the zero crossing: the further the start point of the wave is from the zero line, the louder the click. Slow envelopes will mask this, yes, because they effectively create a volume fade.

Another joy of free running oscillators is that if you have multiple oscillators and they're not exactly in phase (which will happen hardly ever) you will get reinforcement or attenuation depending on where they are relative to each other. This can make the aforementioned click much louder (since now you have two or more oscillators doing it) or they can effectively cancel out, leaving the start of the sound a bit mushy.

Analogue fixed phase oscillators are possible: you can use oscillator sync to force the oscillator to restart by hitting it with the same gate signal that triggers the envelopes. This will ensure that the oscillator is at the zero crossing and hence no discontinuities. It will also mean that multiple oscillators are all starting from a similar point in the wave and this will reduce attenuation.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:40 pm

Thanks for explaining.

Chris-S · Post by **Chris-S** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:40 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:Is it the result of free-running oscillators?

Yes, and you can avoid it with a bit of attack time (5 ms or so).

click.png

fluffy_little_something · Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:41 pm

I am not talking about the click. That is different from the blip.
With retrigger on there are no blips at all in Sylenth1.
With retrigger off there are blips as well when setting filter env decay to zero, slightly increasing the filter env decay makes the blip consistent. So it seems it is about the interaction of osc phase and filter envelope. (Maybe specifically with whether or not the envelopes restart or pick up, although I am not sure this applies to mono modes.)

Yorrrrrr · Post by **Yorrrrrr** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:22 pm

Interesting.

So, it seems there's nothing wrong with The Legend.

fluffy_little_something · Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:30 pm

Not sure since I never played a real Minimoog. Maybe it has that smacking noise as well, or not, who knows...

Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!