Roli Seaboard RISE

[Meffy]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

Must vary according to the player's skin. The silicone bunches up under my fingers once in a while, but very rarely. The skin of my fingertips is dry but (my guitars cry out: for shame, practice more!) not callused.

[machinesworking]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

Must vary according to the player's skin. The silicone bunches up under my fingers once in a while, but very rarely. The skin of my fingertips is dry but (my guitars cry out: for shame, practice more!) not callused.

You're onto something here. I'm a guitar player and I do construction. So pressing down while sliding results in rubber bunching up etc. IMO in 10-20 years this thing will have a smoother finish or a host of online detractors.

Now the dialogue internally is whether to spend the substantially larger price for the LinnStrument 200.

[Meffy]

Expensive but magnificent. Past my limit, so I'll have to admire it from afar.

[machinesworking]

Expensive but magnificent. Past my limit, so I'll have to admire it from afar.

The 128 is cheaper than the Rise. same key range.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

Must vary according to the player's skin. The silicone bunches up under my fingers once in a while, but very rarely. The skin of my fingertips is dry but (my guitars cry out: for shame, practice more!) not callused.

You're onto something here. I'm a guitar player and I do construction. So pressing down while sliding results in rubber bunching up etc. IMO in 10-20 years this thing will have a smoother finish or a host of online detractors.

Now the dialogue internally is whether to spend the substantially larger price for the LinnStrument 200.

I wonder if it changes much over time. I remember having that same feeling whenI tried one ni the store but now the one I bought I never have that problem of the material bunching up. Maybe also something to do with the pressure setting? You really don't need much to have full control and get max pressure and be able to slide up or down.

I have a linnstrument as well and there are advantages and disadvantages of the short vertical axis, but while it is easier to press hard and roll your finger up, it's pretty hard to press hard and do a pitch glide. In fact I find pitch glides much harder to do at the rate and accuracy that I would like to on the linnstrument. Much easier on the Rise. Also with the linnstrument it's you either need very mild vertical bi-polar modulation or you need to use it in uni-polar (upwards only) modulation mode, which I prefer. Otherwise it's just going nuts all the time. Whereas on the rise you can have quite extreme bi-polar modulation and not accidentally trigger it. But it's the really the pitch glide feel that makes me prefer the Rise personally. But they are so different, and have a completely different muscle memory associated with each, aside from the obvious note layout.

[Jace-BeOS]

One day, this kind of expressivity will be the norm, and at that point the prices will become more competitive.

Will it though?

Expressivity has gone backwards in pursuit of lower cost. This has been a technological trend for a while now, in most markets: lower cost = less capability. In fact, we have plenty of companies actively selling less for more!

Back a couple decades, there was greater chance of finding poly-aftertouch on keyboards. Then it was only channel-aftertouch. Now aftertouch itself is mostly left off controllers.

Where were all the ribbons? Yamaha’s most expensive analog synth, Kurzweil’s most expensive digital synth, and ... um... Doepfer’s now discontinued standalone ribbon for modular? At this point, there hasn’t been poly-aftertouch or ribbons on keyboards for ages.

[snip]

No one much cared to improve MIDI itself for 30 years either, and I know that wasn’t for a lack of hardware. It was a lack of demand and a lack of will to change things. It was “good enough”. That’s what I see every time I complain about MIDI’s 8-bit values. “It’s good enough. You’re just complaining!”

[snip]

The evidence so far suggests that this type of product is a niche, and therefore it cannot support higher volume. It looks like it never will.
[snip]

Strange that you would post this just after MIDI 2.0 has been ratified, and new synths such as Hydrasynth with both a ribbon and poly aftertouch, not to mention Osmose, are coming on the market.

I know about MIDI 2.0’s status. I’ll believe in MIDI 2.0 once it’s actually in our operating systems, DAWs, and synths. It’s been “coming soon” for 20 years. Right now it’s in nothing, and almost no one has even announced intent to support it.

If I read the docs correctly, MIDI 2.0 doesn’t even have a hardware connection specified. It’ll probably just be USB for the MIDI 2.0 protocol (the current 5-pin MIDI DIN is indicated to not be supported by the 2.0 protocol), but that eliminates device-to-device connections because USB requires a host. Device-to-device was kinda the original point...

The fact that it can technically use any hardware as a physical transport (except the current MIDI connectors) means there won’t be a standardized connector and hardware developers will just wing it, wont match each other, and won’t want to put two MIDI DIN connectors on (for backwards compatibility) AND then some other connector just for MIDI 2.0 support, which will probably be of little demand when nothing else is supporting it.

This is still going to be a mess of waiting for something to happen.

I wonder if any hardware that claims to support MIDI 2.0 in the future will actually give full resolution on its controls. My M-Audio Oxygen 25 wont even give me the full range of MIDI 1.0’s 8-bit 128 steps for most of its controls (jumping, dead zones). I’ve seen people point out this sloppiness on other controllers. This should’ve been trivial in the year 2000, let alone 20 years later. This is where “cheap” is; not the cost to customers.

Hydrasynth: Huh. I didn’t know about the poly aftertouch or the ribbon. Cool. Thanks for mentioning it. Is the ribbon useful as a MIDI controller externally? If it is, then it’s probably just limited to 8-bit resolution. Or is it the mostly mythical 14-bit?

I saw demos for Osmose. I wasn’t entirely sure what it is. If it’s a synth, and not just an MPE controller, it will heavily depend on a computer or menu diving for editing. I saw no mention of MIDI 2.0 intent.

These will be yet more synths I’ll never be able to test out at a store. But at $1200+ for Hydrasynth and $2000+ for Osmose... they are clearly not priced for me. Not the “lower cost” expressivity we were talking about earlier in the thread...

Why is Hydrasynth only 8 voices?

Too bad MIDI 2.0 hadn’t come out years earlier... These synths might have been built to use it. Or not.

I’ll be elderly or dead by the time all of this has been sorted out. It’s not like we are waiting for some kind of Star Trek magic-physics tech to be invented; there’s just so little demand. These devices (and their components) don’t get bought and assembled in large enough bulk to drop in price. That’s why they cost so much and always will. Those who can afford them will be happy (until all the manufacturers disappear because the market never grew), and everyone else will continue with “good enough”.

If Haken vanished tomorrow, would any company rush to fill the void where Continuum was? What if Roli vanished tomorrow? Would someone rush to fill the void the next day? The next year? Would any of these products be sold on to other companies to continue development, or would the demise of the company basically answer the question “hey should we acquire that IP and take over manufacturing it?” (the shareholders collectively answer: “NO!”)

TL;DR: That part about me being dead before this stuff is finally standard & accessible... that’s really why I’m so pissy

[Jace-BeOS]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

Must vary according to the player's skin. The silicone bunches up under my fingers once in a while, but very rarely. The skin of my fingertips is dry but (my guitars cry out: for shame, practice more!) not callused.

Try some silicone lube?

No joke. I’m legit curious if it would help and if the Roli material is safe for it. It seems fairly sealed.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Jace-BeOS I think you're underestimating how many controllers already have 3d type expressivity. Aside from these expensive ones like linnstrument, Seaboards, Osmose and continuum there's expensive ones the Roli blocks, Joue, the sensel morph, artiphon, K-board, K-board pro, qunexus, cme controllers aren't mpe but are polyAT, as are the new lumi keys. It only started a few years ago and already half my synths are some form of mpe compatible, so I think things have progressed pretty quick actually and little expressive controllers will keep coming I'm sure.

[machinesworking]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

Must vary according to the player's skin. The silicone bunches up under my fingers once in a while, but very rarely. The skin of my fingertips is dry but (my guitars cry out: for shame, practice more!) not callused.

You're onto something here. I'm a guitar player and I do construction. So pressing down while sliding results in rubber bunching up etc. IMO in 10-20 years this thing will have a smoother finish or a host of online detractors.

Now the dialogue internally is whether to spend the substantially larger price for the LinnStrument 200.

I wonder if it changes much over time. I remember having that same feeling whenI tried one ni the store but now the one I bought I never have that problem of the material bunching up. Maybe also something to do with the pressure setting? You really don't need much to have full control and get max pressure and be able to slide up or down.

I have a linnstrument as well and there are advantages and disadvantages of the short vertical axis, but while it is easier to press hard and roll your finger up, it's pretty hard to press hard and do a pitch glide. In fact I find pitch glides much harder to do at the rate and accuracy that I would like to on the linnstrument. Much easier on the Rise. Also with the linnstrument it's you either need very mild vertical bi-polar modulation or you need to use it in uni-polar (upwards only) modulation mode, which I prefer. Otherwise it's just going nuts all the time. Whereas on the rise you can have quite extreme bi-polar modulation and not accidentally trigger it. But it's the really the pitch glide feel that makes me prefer the Rise personally. But they are so different, and have a completely different muscle memory associated with each, aside from the obvious note layout.

I'm not selling the Seaboard Block here, just the Rise. Pitch glides on Roli, It's a very specific sound isn't it? because I see no way of doing a glide without using the strips above or bellow the 'keys', this means at the start you're also incorporating slide.

Basically if you want to engage aftertouch, slide up to engage a filter or whatever, in my case it bunches up the rubber, and the natural thing you do in response is to lock your knuckle, which is not a good thing.

Try some silicone lube?

No joke. I’m legit curious if it would help and if the Roli material is safe for it. It seems fairly sealed.

Worth trying with the Block for sure. I'm selling the Rise and wouldn't be willing to take the $800 resale value hit if silicone lube made a mess of the rubber/silicon of the Rise.

[Jace-BeOS]

Jace-BeOS I think you're underestimating how many controllers already have 3d type expressivity. Aside from these expensive ones like linnstrument, Seaboards, Osmose and continuum there's expensive ones the Roli blocks, Joue, the sensel morph, artiphon, K-board, K-board pro, qunexus, cme controllers aren't mpe but are polyAT, as are the new lumi keys. It only started a few years ago and already half my synths are some form of mpe compatible, so I think things have progressed pretty quick actually and little expressive controllers will keep coming I'm sure.

I’m aware of most of these. Most of them are dependent on computers and proprietary software. I’m not fond of music equipment that can be turned into useless bricks when software updates stop.

While the devices with silicone overlays are curious, and I’d love to try one somewhere (hahahahahahaha), I’m not fond of the concept. They lack solid attachments. Also not fond of the fact that it’s all just regions and pressure. What’s the difference between a squishy ball, a button, a key, a fret, ribbon, etc, when they’re all just squishy silicone transferring one-dimension (pressure) into the device at one angle? I’m more a fan of well-engineered dedicated controls. Less configuration and more direct conversion of user input.

But again, I’d happily try out any of these devices to see if my reservations about their actual usage are unfounded. Regardless, being dependent on a computer and software still leaves me with considerable concern.

Seen my lamentations about MIDI? These things would be less worrisome if they had MIDI connections on them and could work without being connected to a computer. It’s a shame they’re all coming out while MIDI 2.0 is still effectively nowhere.

[Jace-BeOS]

I realize it may seem like I want to find fault with everything, but consider the fact that I’m extremely poor. Anything I spend money on cannot be replaced easily with something else, should bad things happen. I have to be DAMN SURE what I spend my money on is worth it in the LONG term.

[Meffy]

Hey, it's your right to be picky. It's the smart thing, no question of that.

I'm basically poor but can occasionally get a client to pay for "equipment necessary to complete the project". I can also claim legitimate expenditures as tax expenses (subtracted directly from income)… but to be legit they have to be directly connected to a given job. So in an odd way, my income tax ended up paying for my Mac.

[Mats Eriksson]

I realize it may seem like I want to find fault with everything, but consider the fact that I’m extremely poor. Anything I spend money on cannot be replaced easily with something else, should bad things happen. I have to be DAMN SURE what I spend my money on is worth it in the LONG term.

I agree with most of what you're saying. But again, the poly AT decades ago was - as well as controllers - clogging up the MIDI in no small way. Maybe Yamaha CS-80 was the only one and it hadnt got the midi at all. It was hugely expensive too at that time, and it was not run of the mill people that could afford it. Later on, Ensoniq, Alesis et all tried their go at Poly AT and it turned out so and so.

If your'e into synths then I think this is the wrong "world" for you. A Steinway Grand did sound and perform the same in the 60s, and will do the same now. Aiming at an industry where your instrument is - actually - replaced within 3 year with the same features, sound at half the price, just as with computers, is what this "world" is all about. Software, hardware is going to be replaced. It's even the other way around now, that you're not really presented with a finished version of the software now. Firmware, and optional extras through software are forced upon us as time goes by. Now, this isn't included in warranty. I e if some bug should be detected, it is like "we'll fix that next time around". You know the drill with computers.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Altrnate controllers or expressive "haptic" interfaces: Well, everything is bound to wear out. I heard that people wore out their ribbons on their CS-80, and has no replacement. As well as most others things going south on that behemoth of a machine. The keyboard and Poly AT still works. Kurzweil has their ribbon replacement available at a price that is about the same as a 5 string bass string set. They have 5-6 select synths where this one fits into. Speaking of bass strings, or strings on guitar, those wear out too to mechanical wear. It is maybe only the Theremin that doesn't wear out due to mechanical wear. But it still has electronics inside that may dry up sooner or later.

Regarding silicone on Seaboard Rise. I know a number of classical guitarists, and steel string fingerpickers that has to have grown fingernail on right hand picking fingers. They have HUGE troubles being careful not to pinch the Roli Seabord silicone keyboard. Most people I know in music do dabble with more instruments than one. Those with these fingernail can at least still attack regular keyboards, without scratching the surface, because it's harder than the nails. And polished keys (not the fingernails)

I think past times, was that they dodged the Poly AT and too many other controllers, just because of clogging the MIDI stream. Today, with alternate buses, like optical spdif, USB, USB3, Thunderbolt or whatever, you should move forward and the general MIDI protocol and speed is - these days - a drop in the sea for all these transfer speeds, and doesn't clog up anything anymore. However, to change out all of that, you have to a) get a new contact physical interface b) revise, and upgrade MIDI to such a degree that it is not really MIDI anymore. And that would be to open a pandoras box, or can of worms. MPE+, and so on would be increasing in its use, and I am too, wary of any such new things down the line. Some other manufacturer has their own patented proprietary protocol down the line, that they themselves claim can't be included in MIDI and yada yada...not one standard but several.

Sometimes I think that that's why some manufacturers has limit their voices to 8 too, in order to not having to send MIDI information of some 8 more voices, containing AT information, velocity, bends. I know that Hydrasynth can turn into a 16 voice, if you connect - and buy - their desktop module and hook it up. But that's as much as you can go. You can't buy 4 of those modules - hook them up - and expect 32 voice polyphony. You have to have additional mixer to go with that too, so that will turn unwieldy and then some.

I've always wondered how long the Expressive E Touché external controllers will last physically and mechanically. The rules are almost always like this: The more sensitive (touch) you have to make a physical and mechanical apparatus - and especially an electronic thing - the more prone it is to mechanical wear in the long run, due to it's fragile delicacy. If it has to sense and respond to the smallest touch, and movements of your fingers, you have to equip it with delicate sensors too. Those have to be in very tiny dimension, and - maybe - made of material that can only be of few select choices if they have to carry electric conductivity in any case. Adding aftertouch and side to side vibrato too, it will demand another "thing" to detect this, and this applied force will cause much more strain and wear, in comparion to - say - an organ keyboard without any form of velocity sensing, it's just on or off. And if you try to make the sturdier with metal construction all the way, or even uber expensive titanium, players will complain about losing "feel", because they want some wooden feel, or really wood to put under their fingers. So manufacturers has to make these concessions, and compromises all of the time. And wood wears too, eventually.

The least wear comes from those controllers, that works like a Theremin, or Rolands D-beam controller used on some of their keyboards. It senses optically through the air were you hands are. It relies solely on measured distance, and requires absolute no mechanical contact/touch with your fingers or hands.

[Mats Eriksson]

As you can see on the above post, where i've missed letters. Some keys on my computers keyboard has been "worn out" underneath and I have to press harder to make those letters type. Some keys are pressed harder, and used more often, than others. Now, this is a laptop, so it isn't about just buying a new keyboard... for the price of bass strings. And it's even not touch sensitive....or Poly AT...

[Mats Eriksson]

I’m not fond of music equipment that can be turned into useless bricks when software updates stop.

Same here. Agree completely. It's called planned obsolescence. When the "news" or emperors new clothes have faded, and competition has passed it.

Regardless, being dependent on a computer and software still leaves me with considerable concern.

Same here. Agree completely.

Seen my lamentations about MIDI? These things would be less worrisome if they had MIDI connections on them and could work without being connected to a computer. It’s a shame they’re all coming out while MIDI 2.0 is still effectively nowhere.

Yes, eggsactly.