Hi everyone -
I was one of the lucky ones who got their order in last weekend and am very much looking forward to getting my LinnStrument this year.
I see discussion of Ableton Live in other threads, but I wanted to break out the topic to a separate one.
It looks like using Ableton with the LinnStrument is currently convoluted and limited? Would a M4L device of some sort help in this or are the issues on the application level?
I have Logic Pro as well, but I have been composing in Live for years now and feel most comfortable there so I'm wondering if the issues can be solved.
Thanks!
Use with Ableton Live?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 198 posts since 6 May, 2002
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
I use an eigenharp not a linnstrument, but midi limitations are circumvented in the same way.
there are two issue with Live 9.
a) polypressure - no support for poly pressure
b) voice per channel - tracks are single channel only
(a) is a pain when you are using synths that don't support voice per channel - e.g. Alchemy
there is no workaround BUT, if you are using voice per channel its not an issue see (b)
(b) as live only supports a single midi channel per track, you have to create 16 tracks and then target the vst supporting multichannel from each of these channels, and since Live doesn't support poly pressure you should send channel pressure per note (so not a real issue!)
its a bit of hassle to setup once, but after than I just group the tracks, save as a template and drop into other projects.
(Im actually going to write a M4L device that actually not only handles, this but also deals with the 'recording annoyances')
BTW, no M4L will not help get around the single midi channel, as all max devices output on midi channel 1 regardless of what you put in the midi message ... believe me Ive tried
so is Logic Pro X better?
Yes and No.
Yes... because if you are using purely for performance (or only want to record audio), it can accept all of the midi data from all channels and pass on directly to the VST. Also its supports poly pressure, so if you only use poly pressure and not other per note expressions this can be recorded.
No... if you want to record the midi data with all note expression (e.g. per note pitch bend), you will be forced to do exactly the same as Ableton.
for day to day, I use another host (Vienna Ensemble Pro) and if I want a DAW then I use Live (with above method), I might sometimes breakout LPX for audio recording.
But this could just be because I'm more comfortable with Live, and I enjoy its flexibility etc.
summary, use LPX for a quick and simple playing with voice per channel vsts, and use the workaround for live for more serious stuff
(its probably worth noting VpC midi generates so much midi data, in practice its pretty difficult/painful to edit beyond taking out the odd fluffed note. we really need DAWs to have more support where we can see all channels on one track, and allows us to sensible edit the per note data. perhaps one day)
hope above helps, have fun with your linnstrument
ps: Ive also now got Bitwig, which has the potential, as it supports a timbre property on notes, but 'today' (including 1.1 beta) it has exactly the same limitations as Ableton. (polypressure is limited to builtin devices, and single channel).
there are two issue with Live 9.
a) polypressure - no support for poly pressure
b) voice per channel - tracks are single channel only
(a) is a pain when you are using synths that don't support voice per channel - e.g. Alchemy
there is no workaround BUT, if you are using voice per channel its not an issue see (b)
(b) as live only supports a single midi channel per track, you have to create 16 tracks and then target the vst supporting multichannel from each of these channels, and since Live doesn't support poly pressure you should send channel pressure per note (so not a real issue!)
its a bit of hassle to setup once, but after than I just group the tracks, save as a template and drop into other projects.
(Im actually going to write a M4L device that actually not only handles, this but also deals with the 'recording annoyances')
BTW, no M4L will not help get around the single midi channel, as all max devices output on midi channel 1 regardless of what you put in the midi message ... believe me Ive tried
so is Logic Pro X better?
Yes and No.
Yes... because if you are using purely for performance (or only want to record audio), it can accept all of the midi data from all channels and pass on directly to the VST. Also its supports poly pressure, so if you only use poly pressure and not other per note expressions this can be recorded.
No... if you want to record the midi data with all note expression (e.g. per note pitch bend), you will be forced to do exactly the same as Ableton.
for day to day, I use another host (Vienna Ensemble Pro) and if I want a DAW then I use Live (with above method), I might sometimes breakout LPX for audio recording.
But this could just be because I'm more comfortable with Live, and I enjoy its flexibility etc.
summary, use LPX for a quick and simple playing with voice per channel vsts, and use the workaround for live for more serious stuff
(its probably worth noting VpC midi generates so much midi data, in practice its pretty difficult/painful to edit beyond taking out the odd fluffed note. we really need DAWs to have more support where we can see all channels on one track, and allows us to sensible edit the per note data. perhaps one day
)hope above helps, have fun with your linnstrument
ps: Ive also now got Bitwig, which has the potential, as it supports a timbre property on notes, but 'today' (including 1.1 beta) it has exactly the same limitations as Ableton. (polypressure is limited to builtin devices, and single channel).
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- KVRist
- 86 posts since 13 Jan, 2004 from Silicon Valley
In response to technobear, I don't think it is necessary to set up 16 tracks, as the LinnStrument allows the user to specify what MIDI channels are to be assigned to each split. If four MIDI channels are assigned, then four Ableton Live tracks would be used.
Alchemy mobile supports polyphonic glide and can be used to provide polyphonic glide to Mac and Windows versions of Alchemy (according to my reading of the Camel Audio website). I'm not sure how the polyphonic glide is implemented.
The LinnStrument has a (perhaps unique) channel-per-row mode that would have interesting possibilities when used with Ableton, as each row/channel/track could be assigned a different sound or mode (e.g., retrigger vs. legato).
Alchemy mobile supports polyphonic glide and can be used to provide polyphonic glide to Mac and Windows versions of Alchemy (according to my reading of the Camel Audio website). I'm not sure how the polyphonic glide is implemented.
The LinnStrument has a (perhaps unique) channel-per-row mode that would have interesting possibilities when used with Ableton, as each row/channel/track could be assigned a different sound or mode (e.g., retrigger vs. legato).
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
you need as many channels (=tracks) as you want independently expressed notes…
if you are willing to have less independent notes, then of course you can reduce… for me its just simpler to have a template with the max setup, so i don't need to think about it, it just works
(perhaps, worth stating, this is not only pitch bend, its also about expressive timbre control via CC… which is equally as important to me)
polyphonic pitchbend on alchemy mobile is not generic, it uses an automation lane for each note, so is very specific to alchemy (unfortunately) … i considered implementing an agent on the eigenharp for it, but decided against, as we still would only have pitch bend + poly pressure, so would be missing 3rd axis, and i don't use alchemy much .
channel per row, not really unique, eigenharps can have arbitrary shaped distribution of keys, and then channel polity can be set for each. Soundplane has zones which i believe are similar.
anyway, this is just how i do it, I'm sure each will find there own way that will work for them.
if you are willing to have less independent notes, then of course you can reduce… for me its just simpler to have a template with the max setup, so i don't need to think about it, it just works
(perhaps, worth stating, this is not only pitch bend, its also about expressive timbre control via CC… which is equally as important to me
)polyphonic pitchbend on alchemy mobile is not generic, it uses an automation lane for each note, so is very specific to alchemy (unfortunately) … i considered implementing an agent on the eigenharp for it, but decided against, as we still would only have pitch bend + poly pressure, so would be missing 3rd axis, and i don't use alchemy much .
channel per row, not really unique, eigenharps can have arbitrary shaped distribution of keys, and then channel polity can be set for each. Soundplane has zones which i believe are similar.
anyway, this is just how i do it, I'm sure each will find there own way that will work for them.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 198 posts since 6 May, 2002
Thank you all for the more detailed explanation.
I guess I'll have to play around with Live, Logic and the LinnStrument once it arrives and figure out what works best. I'm just so stuck in the Live way of thinking when composing that the thought of going back to Logic gives me a belly ache!
I guess I'll have to play around with Live, Logic and the LinnStrument once it arrives and figure out what works best. I'm just so stuck in the Live way of thinking when composing that the thought of going back to Logic gives me a belly ache!
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- KVRAF
- 5830 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Not that familiar with M4L but an alternative that can output any channel is Bidule. In Cubase I use Bidule as an IN and do my midi mapping and other nonsense within. I sometimes also use it in the usual fashion as a VSTi on a track.thetechnobear wrote: BTW, no M4L will not help get around the single midi channel, as all max devices output on midi channel 1 regardless of what you put in the midi message ... believe me Ive tried .
http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/
My Studio: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7760&p=7777146#p7777146
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
I don't think bidule (or anything else) will help, its not that M4L cannot send on a different channel (it can) , BUT that Live then changes the channel from any device to channel 1. so even if you send to channel X from bidule it will arrive at the next device (=vst/au) as channel 1.
anyway, as i tried to explain, this becomes a mute point when you come to recording the midi, as there would be no way to store the extra data without using extra tracks.
… and if your only using it for performance (ie. no recording clips etc), then use LPX or another host, and if you wish record the audio in Live.
of course, if anyone here can get it to work in a different way, Id love to hear about it.
btw, I've now produced a M4L device, which automatically sets up N channel on N tracks, so its a non-issue for me, next step is to get it so that the 'slave tracks' (ch 2-15) are automatically reflect the status of the 'master track' (ch1) e.g you hit record/solo on master track, and the others automatically follow, then I can hide the slave tracks, so they don't show up on Push.
this is what i really like about Live, it has limitations but with M4L you can often create find creative solution around them
anyway, as i tried to explain, this becomes a mute point when you come to recording the midi, as there would be no way to store the extra data without using extra tracks.
… and if your only using it for performance (ie. no recording clips etc), then use LPX or another host, and if you wish record the audio in Live.
of course, if anyone here can get it to work in a different way, Id love to hear about it.
btw, I've now produced a M4L device, which automatically sets up N channel on N tracks, so its a non-issue for me, next step is to get it so that the 'slave tracks' (ch 2-15) are automatically reflect the status of the 'master track' (ch1) e.g you hit record/solo on master track, and the others automatically follow, then I can hide the slave tracks, so they don't show up on Push.
this is what i really like about Live, it has limitations but with M4L you can often create find creative solution around them
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 8 Nov, 2014
I also was lucky enough to get in a preorder last weekend and am looking forward to using this. I perform and write with Ableton Live and I can understand how to create the 16 channels in order to funnel all note per channel data into one VST channel, but I would be curious to see your max patch, thetechnobear. It would be lovely to not have to arm all tracks individually. Any chance you would be willing to share? I have some Max For Live experience and could possibly help out. Thanks!
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- KVRist
- 335 posts since 11 Feb, 2008 from The Mountains of VT
Hi Guys,
Another Live here. Have you guys posted formal feature requests to Ableton for Multichannel MIDI tracks? I'm going to send them an email today. Even though this functionality is somewhat niche, if enough of us request it perhaps the Ableton developers will add it in the future.
Another Live here. Have you guys posted formal feature requests to Ableton for Multichannel MIDI tracks? I'm going to send them an email today. Even though this functionality is somewhat niche, if enough of us request it perhaps the Ableton developers will add it in the future.
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
yes SUG-0982
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... F549188CCF
sign in and vote for it...
also there is a multi midi channel output too, that could do with your support SUG-0934
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... EE8EAEEEA2
and SUG 0928 for poly pressure support - its says push, but if push gets it, we all get it
)
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 7689B0EFDB
who knows if it makes a difference, but worth making your voice heard!
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... F549188CCF
sign in and vote for it...
also there is a multi midi channel output too, that could do with your support SUG-0934
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... EE8EAEEEA2
and SUG 0928 for poly pressure support - its says push, but if push gets it, we all get it
)https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 7689B0EFDB
who knows if it makes a difference, but worth making your voice heard!
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- KVRist
- 335 posts since 11 Feb, 2008 from The Mountains of VT
Thanks for sharing these!thetechnobear wrote:yes SUG-0982
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... F549188CCF
sign in and vote for it...
also there is a multi midi channel output too, that could do with your support SUG-0934
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... EE8EAEEEA2
and SUG 0928 for poly pressure support - its says push, but if push gets it, we all get it
https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 7689B0EFDB
who knows if it makes a difference, but worth making your voice heard!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 198 posts since 6 May, 2002
I've got a thread open with Ableton about this issue and here's what one of the Ableton people said:
"Thanks for the details, makes the problem quite apparent, ive relayed the question to our team hoping for some feedback on this."
And then later:
"Nothing came back from the dev lists, please make sure to enter a suggestion for this so the request does not get lost."
"Thanks for the details, makes the problem quite apparent, ive relayed the question to our team hoping for some feedback on this."
And then later:
"Nothing came back from the dev lists, please make sure to enter a suggestion for this so the request does not get lost."
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 198 posts since 6 May, 2002
Regarding VEP, can it somehow be used with Ableton to get around Ableton's limitations regarding poly pressure?thetechnobear wrote: for day to day, I use another host (Vienna Ensemble Pro) and if I want a DAW then I use Live (with above method), I might sometimes breakout LPX for audio recording.
But this could just be because I'm more comfortable with Live, and I enjoy its flexibility etc.
ps: Ive also now got Bitwig, which has the potential, as it supports a timbre property on notes, but 'today' (including 1.1 beta) it has exactly the same limitations as Ableton. (polypressure is limited to builtin devices, and single channel).
I didn't know that Bitwig was that limited with regards to poly pressure. Is that still the case with the release version 1.1? I really wish Bitwig could be ReWired as I don't want to fully commit to yet another DAW!
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
there is one thing you can do... but its an 'experimental' featurenatqueencole wrote: Regarding VEP, can it somehow be used with Ableton to get around Ableton's limitations regarding poly pressure?
VEP even when loaded via the its VEP VST, can (optionally) allow direct connections from devices.
so you could load up the VEP VST in ableton, but connect your Linnstrument directly to tracks in VEP, which will then send the resulting audio back to live.
It works, Ive done it with my Eigenharp, but when I asked on the VSL forums if this was supported, if there were any known issues... i just got the reply, its experimental, so its unclear how reliable they think it is.
(I think its probably ok for controllers... just don't start sending midi clocks, as id assume this will come from the host)
anyway, if you have VEP its worth a try.
generally, I don't need poly pressure to much, as i try to use synths with voice per channel midi, and then you just send channel pressure on the individual channels, poly pressure buys you very little then.
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- KVRist
- 335 posts since 11 Feb, 2008 from The Mountains of VT
FWIW, I found a solution that works for me in Live without having to create multiple MIDI tracks using Plogue Bidule. I don't route the MIDI from the Linnstrument thru Live. Instead I route the MIDI from the Linnstrument to hosted VSTis inside of Bidule. Then rewire the audio into a single audio track in Live. Simply setting 'Plogue Bidule Device' as the track's input.natqueencole wrote: I really wish Bitwig could be ReWired as I don't want to fully commit to yet another DAW!
Have a great weekend,
Chad
