Imitone -- wow! Most embarassing post I ever started

[ThomasHelzle]

I personally couldn't think of any use for such a virtual midi port spawned by a VST like Imitone.

And like TabSel said, if you have 10 instances of Imitone in your project you would definitely not want them all to create ports, so it would need to be optional (if at all) and default to off.

Also be aware that Windows can choke on too many midi ports and sometimes has trouble tracking them correctly...

My main host is Bitwig, which can dynamically see midi ports created during runtime (many hosts on Windows can't), but those ports would not be there at the moment you open your project until all instances of Imitone are fully loaded, so I guess you could lose all your routings on each start if the host falls back on defaults when a port is missing...

If you have any users who actually want what you seem to insisting on as your view of awesome ("Imitone is a hardware controller"), go for it in version 2 maybe?
I see Midi routing as a total non-issue in any decent host that makes sense to use with a tool like yours.
- Ableton Live, while not able to put several Midi VSTs on the same track has a clear and detailed system of routing that any user will be able to get to work.
- Bitwig Studio can put as many Midi VSTs in a device chain as you want, can route Midi from everywhere to any track and has Midi Receiver devices which can receive from any track to any point of a device chain without any latency issues.
- All modular hosts like Plogue Bidule, Usine etc. have no issue at all.
- More linear hosts like Studio One etc. are often also limited to one Midi-generating VST per track, but again, users who are working with such plugins will usually know already how to deal with that or will be able to find out.

I do not know all hosts, but somehow it seems that the problem is mostly with AU-only hosts, since Apple crippled that standard to not include Midi handling?
Or what other hosts are giving you "routing headaches"?

But you would still need to be sure that your scheme actually works reliably on project reload and is able to re-establish all former connections reliably, otherwise it would be not very usable.

I'd say: create a working VST with standard Midi out first and explore further options later on if enough users actually ask for them. Between the standalone and the VST you should have a lot of bases covered.

I can't give feedback on the latest version since I did not try it out yet - I wait for the VST.

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

So, what's up with Imitone VST?
Any news?

Cheers,

Tom

[klinik]

Backer here, any news!!???

[GreyLion]

I had a somewhat contentious twitter back-and-forth with Evan Balster, the Imitone developer.

I honestly can't tell whether he's bs'ing his backers or himself, or just having a hard time completing a difficult project. He backed away from doing a VST until it's near v1 release. Says he'll be out with the next beta in a few weeks.

I personally think he's seriously perfectionistic and stuck with some sort of blockage, whether it's internal brain fart or in getting his algorithm math worked out -- whichever algorithm that might be, as he's extremely non-detailed in his responses unless pushed hard.

I no longer trust that he'll keep any promises or deadlines, as he seems to have tons of reasons for breaking them. I'm going to be really surprised if this project completes. But perhaps I'm just being a pessimistic grump.

You can follow the thread here, though you'll also need to hit his account to get the full thing: https://twitter.com/GreyLionEleven/with_replies

I don't see any point in anyone else tweeting or emailing him. I doubt you'll get more out of him than I did, and it's just wasted effort. By the end, I felt like I'd kicked a puppy. Didn't enjoy the sensation.

Hell, maybe it'll be awesome someday.

[Photo_G]

That's too bad. I though Evan was going to nail it, after the great backing response. Oh well.

[ThomasHelzle]

That's too bad. I though Evan was going to nail it, after the great backing response. Oh well.

Look more like he's nailing himself to some cross nobody but him can see...

[deastman]

I'm still curious about his algorithm, which he implies is something totally unique. When he described it a few pages back, it just sounded like a Kalman filter. But of course he didn't respond when I asked him if that was what it was...

[wasi]

I don't see the beef. He's obviously still working on it and slow going is the hallmark of the lone developer. Limited ressources, side projects to pay bills, single-POV product vision... "when it's done" has a whole new meaning when it's just one guy.

I'm not a backer and I have midiGuitar that covers my needs, but if I didn't, I think I'd actually buy into Imitone based on that conversation. I mean I understand the frustration but he obviously is hard at work, even if one may question his development priorities.

"If I made a VST at this stage of development I'd be bogged down with support work" is certainly an explanation I can subscribe to. I think he's right.

[whyterabbyt]

I don't see the beef. He's obviously still working on it and slow going is the hallmark of the lone developer. Limited ressources, side projects to pay bills, single-POV product vision... "when it's done" has a whole new meaning when it's just one guy.

No, not really. When its one guy who's 'done' point is permanently in the future, then its got a whole new meaning though. He did, after all, raise $90K on the basis of allegedly working demo technology. Are you saying a single developer, working on a project with no recurring overheads, couldn't live on that for 2 years without needing side projects?
Because so far, that's how long its taken. Two years, and he's still talking about 'doing research'. To me that smacks of someone being a dilettante about delivering, who didn't actually have concrete deliverable objectives for their product. Add in the complete lack of communication, and my suspicion is that we're basically talking about someone who's doing this as a pet project, with no ultimate concern for the product that people actually funded.

About six months ago, Evan said this:

The whole field of real-time pitch tracking feels like a graveyard to me, full of aborted attempts at making a useful technology. Every company and engineer who has thrown a hat into the ring has stopped at the "cutting edge", all too eager to ship its superior-but-still-broken tool. I've caught some flack for taking my sweet time with imitone, but I don't want to continue that trend -- otherwise I would have halted R&D a year ago.

As I see it, this embodies the problem here, and its one that exists the world over (its rather obvious in the FOSS community, for example) ; a solo developer who prioritises 'perfection', without ever delivering a finalised deliverable, just an unending sequence of alphas and betas and rewrites. And that's absolutely fine when its just a pet project. However, this wasnt sold as a pet project, it was sold as a working thing. Im not so sure it would have appealed as much if sold as 'fund me for two years while I work out how to make something', which is what it actually turned out to be.
There are a lot of failed Kickstarters out there. Some were scams, more just didnt work out. This is in the latter category now; the developer keeps moving their own goalposts, and ultimately, IMO, has rendered the project unfinishable. The developer, in November last year, said this: (my highlighting)

As of January, I'm not trying to be better than my predecessors; I'm trying to create something completely different. imitone will be version 1.0 when -- and only when -- it can change the landscape of digital music.

Lets be frank; it wont do this. And if the developer cant be pragmatic about that, and deal accordingly, by his own words, this product will not be completed. And in the meantime, it wouldn't surprise me if someone with slightly less hubris or (crowdfunded) navel-gazing produced a more than acceptable substitute.

[wasi]

And in the meantime, it wouldn't surprise me if someone with slightly less hubris or (crowdfunded) navel-gazing produced a more than acceptable substitute.

Well, he points out himself that midiGuitar is an acceptable alternative out now if you're willing to 'settle for less'. Combined with his proactive the offer of a refund, I really can't fault him. He basically said "Yeah, sorry about the deadline, I should never have said that, if you want your money back now let me know, otherwise, I'm working on making it just as amazing as I promised. Stay tuned."

Anyway, if he released something now below specs, just as many (if not more) would complain they were promised a game changer and instead got a reimagined 'midiGuitar'. At this point he can't win and I commend his dedication to pull through on his larger goals. It's not like he abandoned it. There's a new version coming out in the next few days apparently.

But yeah, I've noticed around here that I tend to have a more relaxed stance towards indie devs than others. But then if I was really worked up about my 60 bucks I felt he hadn't delivered on I'd just ask him for a refund. But I've spent $60 on worse.

[whyterabbyt]

Anyway, if he released something now below specs, just as many (if not more) would complain they were promised a game changer and instead got a reimagined 'midiGuitar'. .

The KS didnt actually 'promise a game changer' though. What it was sold on was being a refinement over what was available.

imitone offers live pitch detection competitive with the best available, with superior latency and MIDI sequencing

It was also sold on its technology, which was an existent thing, and implemented to the point that a version of the software was incoming.

The best part: It's not just a promise. Imitone is fully-functional right now, and will be available to backers within a month after this Kickstarter concludes.

imitone is powered by an unprecedented audio analysis technique: the self-attuning resonator cell, or "SAHIR", which allows it to detect tonal sounds with extreme precision and latencies on the order of 5 to 20 wavelengths.

That's two years ago. At that point, we're being told that there's a specific algorithm being used, and that an implementation using that technology is 'fully functional.' And yet two years down the line, its still seemingly in an R&D stage, not even an optimisation or refinement stage. The notional thing that was being sold was a working product available soon, not the underwriting of a pet project which was going to stay forever in R&D because 'change the world'...

[ThomasHelzle]

"If I made a VST at this stage of development I'd be bogged down with support work" is certainly an explanation I can subscribe to. I think he's right.

Why would a VST bog him down with support when a standalone does not?
Because people would/could actually use it?

Cheers,

Tom

[wasi]

"If I made a VST at this stage of development I'd be bogged down with support work" is certainly an explanation I can subscribe to. I think he's right.

Why would a VST bog him down with support when a standalone does not?
Because people would/could actually use it?

Cheers,

Tom

Yeah. Plus more variables by adding the daw to the mix. And more average Joe types filing "doesn't work, please fix or I'll complain on KVR" support requests. I totally get that argument.

[Compyfox]

A VST/AU/AAX version would actually IMPROVE his situation on the long run. A standalone for both Mac and Windows does keep things "simple", because you only need to render two executables. HOWEVER... (and this is a big however), we still have the MIDI drivers, the loopback drivers, driver sharing for the mics (to my understanding, the mic for Imitone can not use the same ASIO ports as say S1 or Cubase - so it's another driver that is involved.

Things are just as complicated. A VST/AU/AAX version would in fact simplify things:
- audio drivers from the host (no two different drivers - one for the mic, one for the host)
- no latency issues
- direct MIDI forwarding (no loopback drivers needed)
- per-project settings save

Just to name a few things.


In fact, Balster could go the route that Musiclab goes: create one "global engine", and the .DLL links to that folder. So if there is a host compatibility issue, it's down to the DLL used, not necessarily the whole engine this routes to.



But overall - I agree - a lot of excuses for a product that basically works already. In fact, since the Kickstarter campaign. It was also shown at various trade shows. What the users complain now, and it's an adjusted complaint, is compatibility and usability without jumping hoops. "Refunding" is an option, but this only damages the company's reputation on the long run and keeps those people away, that are still on the edge.


I'm surprised that Balster, a developer with yearlong experience in the software realm, doesn't see or understand this. But then again, what do I know? I'm an interested party, I'm no user or backer... yet(!!!).

[pottering]

VST or not, I hope you guys remember this is not a "guitar (or any other instrument) to midi" software, nor a Melodyne Audio-To-MIDI alternative.

It is only meant for converting human voice (singing/humming), never promised otherwise.

That's why the dev suggested you guys get MIDI Guitar if you want to convert guitar audio (too polite, I guess).
Also, why the algorithm may be different from existing algos that don't focus only on human voice.

This thread's title correctly mentions voice-to-midi, other people introduced MIDI Guitar and Melodyne, which derailed the thread.