KVR Audio

DSmolken · Post by **DSmolken** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:12 am

From my limited experience the nicest thing about Kontakt is that the sampler and editor are in one integrated package. With SFZ it usually ends up being Sforzando plus SFZed plus Notepad for me. But it's still reasonably efficient - mapping samples takes me probably about the same amount of time and effort as recording them (for a regular instrument with a few hundred samples and not a ton of controls), but a lot less time than splitting up the recordings into individual samples and editing them.

I wouldn't say it's like working with DOS, but maybe Windows 3.11 or NT 4.0, haha.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:59 pm

It's like having a slider with a text box next to it and being told to pick a number 0-255. Some will think of a number then enter it in the text box; Others will drag the slider around until they're happy with the number they're on. Strokes for folks.

Now if you're given a specific number to enter, say 163, a few more will go for the text box but still some will use the slider even though it can be quite fiddly.

Now add to this a colour preview and ask people to choose a nice shade of blue 0-255 and pretty much everyone will go for the slider because of the live feedback.

Laying out a basic patch with sfz can be very quick and simple but when it comes to tweaking things like filters and envelopes, it's nice to have that instant feedback.

DSmolken · Post by **DSmolken** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:27 pm

Yeah, it is.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:55 pm

Well I could show you the same type of control in many sfz players but does that actually change the sfz file or just make it a Sforzando patch?

DSmolken · Post by **DSmolken** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:49 pm

The controls with their ranges and default values are defined in the SFZ file and assigned to MIDI CC, so you can fiddle with, say, the filter cutoff live or automate it. They probably won't work in any SFZ sampler other than Sforzando, and the ones like detune and width are done using opcodes only implemented recently, but somebody who downloads that library can do a lot to tweak the sounds without ever having to look inside an SFZ file.

I started out just wanting some samples of my own bass, and I did them in SFZ because I didn't want to spend money on a sampler, and I kinda got sucked in...

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:57 pm

Yeah, the point I was making is that your instrument is a plogue instrument even though it may have standard sfz at it's core. You could of course load an sfz into any number of samplers and turn it into an instrument of that particular sampler.

davidv@plogue · Post by **davidv@plogue** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:02 pm

Marctwo wrote:Yeah, the point I was making is that your instrument is a plogue instrument even though it may have standard sfz at it's core. You could of course load an sfz into any number of samplers and turn it into an instrument of that particular sampler.

This SFZ would work in Dimension Pro most probably, (it is standard SFZ 2.0) the difference being the UI controls would not automatically show. If other players are not SFZ 2.0 compliant should is it the spec's problem?

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:10 pm

Yes, the standard sfz part is standard sfz but the controls part is not, it's plogue specific.

davidv@plogue · Post by **davidv@plogue** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:14 pm

Marctwo wrote:Yes, the standard sfz part is standard sfz but the controls part is not, it's plogue specific.

Thing is you can't define a generic UI that will look the same across platforms.
Remember VST plugins with "just" parameters? The host had the choice to display those with the style (or lack therof) that pleased it.

Those plugins were still part of the VST1/2 spec, and nothing was broken.

Chad@PA · Post by **Chad@PA** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:25 pm

davidv@plogue wrote:
ras.s wrote:A wiki-site with invited authors perhaps? Hidden from public view for some time at first ..
Yes, a first pass would be to copy the SFZ 1.0 spec in there, then add the rest.
Perhaps adding empty entries for each 2.0 opcode, and fill these as time permits. wikia is a ad-filled nightmare, but at least no one has to backup it.

Any takes?

Hey everyone,

I just moved April 1st and missed most of this thread when it first started. Just catching up on everything now.

I am very interested in promoting and further developing resources for the SFZ format.

It'd be great to get a site online that had all of the opcodes with useful examples and implementations. This would help the format gain interest especially for those curious on what the format can offer.

SampleScience · Post by **SampleScience** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:10 pm

davidv@plogue wrote:
Marctwo wrote:Yes, the standard sfz part is standard sfz but the controls part is not, it's plogue specific.
Thing is you can't define a generic UI that will look the same across platforms.
Remember VST plugins with "just" parameters? The host had the choice to display those with the style (or lack therof) that pleased it.

Those plugins were still part of the VST1/2 spec, and nothing was broken.

I don't think he talks about the visual aspect of the UI, but the parameters of the control themselves. That's the problem; if I create a Sfz instrument with "complex" modulation and ADSR envelopes in Sforzando, it will never play the same in other instruments, making the sfz create in Sforzando, Sforzando instruments more that universal Sfz.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:10 am

Yes, thank you SampleScience. I wasn't talking about Sforzando specifically but as soon as you use the editing controls of any player, it's not standard sfz any more. Whether it's Dimension Pro, Sforzando or Kontakt makes not difference, it just happened to be a picture of Sforzando that was posted.

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:21 am

SampleScience wrote:I don't think he talks about the visual aspect of the UI, but the parameters of the control themselves. That's the problem; if I create a Sfz instrument with "complex" modulation and ADSR envelopes in Sforzando, it will never play the same in other instruments, making the sfz create in Sforzando, Sforzando instruments more that universal Sfz.

David's point is that, in fact, it should play pretty much the same in any SFZ 2 instrument (ARIA Engine has a few extensions but most of the core is pretty much the same). Certainly "complex" modulation and ADSR is standard SFZ 2.

Marctwo wrote:Yes, thank you SampleScience. I wasn't talking about Sforzando specifically but as soon as you use the editing controls of any player, it's not standard sfz any more. Whether it's Dimension Pro, Sforzando or Kontakt makes not difference, it just happened to be a picture of Sforzando that was posted.

What do you mean by "standard sfz"? That which plays in the worst supporting environment? There is no standard (one of the points made over and over again in this thread). I would never compare Kontakt as an SFZ player against any of the Cakewalk or Plogue players, as I don't believe it supports all of SFZ 1 let alone SFZ 2.

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:07 am

pljones wrote:
Marctwo wrote:Yes, thank you SampleScience. I wasn't talking about Sforzando specifically but as soon as you use the editing controls of any player, it's not standard sfz any more. Whether it's Dimension Pro, Sforzando or Kontakt makes not difference, it just happened to be a picture of Sforzando that was posted.
What do you mean by "standard sfz"? That which plays in the worst supporting environment? There is no standard (one of the points made over and over again in this thread). I would never compare Kontakt as an SFZ player against any of the Cakewalk or Plogue players, as I don't believe it supports all of SFZ 1 let alone SFZ 2.

No offense, but that seems a bit obtuse. You seem to have missed the sentiment of my post and focused on nit-picking minor errors. Sorry, I didn't have a solicitor with me to check my post.

I wouldn't say Kontakt is sfz compatible. But it doesn't matter because that's not the point.

You say there's no standard and then your refer to sfz 1 and sfz 2. So you obviously know what I mean by standard sfz.

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:09 pm

You need to be specific rather than say nothing. If you say "standard sfz" you're saying nothing at all. Either say "sfz 1" or "sfz 2".

The Future of the SFZ Format