A thought experiment about Bitwig pricing
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 909 posts since 7 Nov, 2017
From your own cited article. First paragraph. "Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers".
The stuff I've been trying to explain is the WHY behind that conclusion from YOUR cited article. Meanwhile, I'm done with you.
The stuff I've been trying to explain is the WHY behind that conclusion from YOUR cited article. Meanwhile, I'm done with you.
What is the best DAW? It’s a question where suddenly families and friends are split and face off against each other. When tribes become fierce. But ultimately, it's a fairly pointless question to a large extent. The DAW we choose often depends on the type of music we make (Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers, while Pro Tools tends to have more sway with band-based recording engineers).
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- KVRAF
- 2306 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Yokai and Apocalypse, for chrissake get a room you lovebirds!
- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
Agree, sort of.
Because the more interesting question is if we would even have "bass music" if there was no Ableton? Because to some extent the tools dictate - or at least inspire - certain workflows and techniques. Sure you can do multi-instruments or parallel effect chains in Cubase, but it's not as easy, fast and flexible. Likewise, the availability of easily assignable LFOs or envelopes to virtually any parameter in Ableton Suite or FL opened the door for wub-wub type sounds, whereas Simpler's sample chopping or Beat Repeat facilitated the "glitch" genres and aesthetic. And so on, and so forth...
So while I agree you can make "bass music" or "glitch" in Studio One or Cubase, it's definitely easier to do it in Bitwig, Live or FL. And the opposite is true for recording a band or scoring a movie.
And there's nothing wrong with that, just like we have different coats for different weather, different cars for different terrain or different screwdrivers for different screws
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- KVRian
- 1271 posts since 17 Oct, 2018
If you bothered to look at the article you would see the the margin by which Ableton "wins" is barely 1.32 percent. You would also find in that article that a lower percentage consider themselves professionals (as in they make music for a living and or make money from it) versus Logic. As well a larger percentage of them consider themselves "complete beginners" than Logic. Kind of defeats the purpose of citing more users when a lot of those user don't use the software professionally, or don't actually know who to use the software.Yokai wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm From your own cited article. First paragraph. "Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers".
The stuff I've been trying to explain is the WHY behind that conclusion from YOUR cited article. Meanwhile, I'm done with you.
What is the best DAW? It’s a question where suddenly families and friends are split and face off against each other. When tribes become fierce. But ultimately, it's a fairly pointless question to a large extent. The DAW we choose often depends on the type of music we make (Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers, while Pro Tools tends to have more sway with band-based recording engineers).
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine
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- KVRian
- 671 posts since 11 May, 2014
That article doesn't necessarily say anything that helps you with your argument. Logic is really popular in the composing world so we have no idea how many of the votes are from composers.apoclypse wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pmIf you bothered to look at the article you would see the the margin by which Ableton "wins" is barely 1.32 percent. You would also find in that article that a lower percentage consider themselves professionals (as in they make music for a living and or make money from it) versus Logic. As well a larger percentage of them consider themselves "complete beginners" than Logic. Kind of defeats the purpose of citing more users when a lot of those user don't use the software professionally, or don't actually know who to use the software.Yokai wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:26 pm From your own cited article. First paragraph. "Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers".
The stuff I've been trying to explain is the WHY behind that conclusion from YOUR cited article. Meanwhile, I'm done with you.
What is the best DAW? It’s a question where suddenly families and friends are split and face off against each other. When tribes become fierce. But ultimately, it's a fairly pointless question to a large extent. The DAW we choose often depends on the type of music we make (Ableton Live is clearly the favorite of electronic producers, while Pro Tools tends to have more sway with band-based recording engineers).
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- KVRian
- 1271 posts since 17 Oct, 2018
Considering "bass music" (still have to work out what that means), existed before Ableton became a major force as a DAW, my answer is yes. The advent of "bass music" as we know it, the most pivotal software has got to be Massive. The crazy modulation, the wub wub all of that is trademark Massive and Massive doesn't need Ableton to do that. All of its modulation are done internal to the plugin. For a long time Logic and Acid were the defacto DAWs for Drum and Bass (I'm assuming you can consider that "bass music"). Logic is still used heavily in that genre.antic604 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:38 pmAgree, sort of.
Because the more interesting question is if we would even have "bass music" if there was no Ableton? Because to some extent the tools dictate - or at least inspire - certain workflows and techniques. Sure you can do multi-instruments or parallel effect chains in Cubase, but it's not as easy, fast and flexible. Likewise, the availability of easily assignable LFOs or envelopes to virtually any parameter in Ableton Suite or FL opened the door for wub-wub type sounds, whereas Simpler's sample chopping or Beat Repeat facilitated the "glitch" genres and aesthetic. And so on, and so forth...
So while I agree you can make "bass music" or "glitch" in Studio One or Cubase, it's definitely easier to do it in Bitwig, Live or FL. And the opposite is true for recording a band or scoring a movie.
And there's nothing wrong with that, just like we have different coats for different weather, different cars for different terrain or different screwdrivers for different screws
Maybe I'd give you Trap. FLStudio did have a huge influence on that genre simply because the way FLStudio handles samples. So a pitched 808 is much easier to do (every sampled instrument up to and including audio tracks as treated as a sampler in FLStudio), but its not exactly hard in any other DAW either.
Anyway my issue isn't that you can or cannot do whatever in one DAW or another but Yokai's assertion that no electronic music producer uses a traditional DAW, which is just silly.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine
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- KVRian
- 966 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
Yes. Are there any good tutorials you have done or recommend on doing this in Bitwig? I am going to print a song from my sequencer into Bitwig soon (waiting on my ERM to show up) and I'd love to learn some Bitwig tricks on audio file modulation.Yokai wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:33 pm And that's just in my small circle. If you think anyone you see on the summer festival stages "just uses presets out of Serum (etc.) and stops there", you're sorely mistaken. There's a hella lotta sound design going on after all the synth tracks have been flattened to audio.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 909 posts since 7 Nov, 2017
That's a really excellent question/request. I'll be honest--I don't want to go into that territory too much (although I certainly could--and also about the subjects of self-mixing and self-mastering to a competitve "pro" level) because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and those giants are still out there to teach directly.stash98 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:20 pmYes. Are there any good tutorials you have done or recommend on doing this in Bitwig? I am going to print a song from my sequencer into Bitwig soon (waiting on my ERM to show up) and I'd love to learn some Bitwig tricks on audio file modulation.Yokai wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:33 pm And that's just in my small circle. If you think anyone you see on the summer festival stages "just uses presets out of Serum (etc.) and stops there", you're sorely mistaken. There's a hella lotta sound design going on after all the synth tracks have been flattened to audio.
In short, I don't want to reinvent the wheel on sound design, mixing, and mastering because great stuff already exists and great teachers and mentors are already out there. And I don't want to undercut my OWN mentors and teachers, most of whom earn at least part of their income from teaching/mentoring in production skills. And I don't want to be another producer doing sound design tutorials, etc.
So my niche is largely "Bitwig vs Ableton" and "Fast workflow tips in Bitwig". Almost nobody else is doing that, so I fill the gap. And, lol, I'm tempting the large circle of producers I work with to jump ship and move from Ableton to Bitwig. I have about 6 notches on my gun so far and still adding notches... I've even got my prize heavyweight friend and mentor who has been a LONG time Ableton-based educator thinking seriously about jumping ship.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 2 Jan, 2019 from London, England
I don't know about 'bass music' (mostly because I'm not sure if people understand the term the same way I do) but we'd certainly have 'glitch' without Ableton Live, since it preceded the release of Live 1 by at least a few years. If 'bass music' is what I think it is it also started in the 90s.
Do certain things about Live and Bitwig make certain styles easier? Possibly. But that's not to say that these are necessarily the preferred tools - we can't draw any conclusion about what musicians in specific styles are more likely to use.
Do certain things about Live and Bitwig make certain styles easier? Possibly. But that's not to say that these are necessarily the preferred tools - we can't draw any conclusion about what musicians in specific styles are more likely to use.
- Banned
- 2288 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada
I think certain musical tools make certain styles of music easier to make. For example Grooveboxes and the obvious creating dance music.fold4 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:57 am I don't know about 'bass music' (mostly because I'm not sure if people understand the term the same way I do) but we'd certainly have 'glitch' without Ableton Live, since it preceded the release of Live 1 by at least a few years. If 'bass music' is what I think it is it also started in the 90s.
Do certain things about Live and Bitwig make certain styles easier? Possibly. But that's not to say that these are necessarily the preferred tools - we can't draw any conclusion about what musicians in specific styles are more likely to use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groovebox
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Gear & Setup: Windows 10, Dual Xeon, 32GB RAM, Cubase 10.5/9.5, NI Komplete Audio 6, NI Maschine, NI Jam, NI Kontakt
Gear & Setup: Windows 10, Dual Xeon, 32GB RAM, Cubase 10.5/9.5, NI Komplete Audio 6, NI Maschine, NI Jam, NI Kontakt
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SpaceCadetOnLeave SpaceCadetOnLeave https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=420496
- KVRist
- 197 posts since 6 Jun, 2018 from Berlin
You can, and some do, but it's severely short-sighted, it reminds me of the times where groups of wannabe's would state one only could make dancemusic with Roland machines. Or only electronic music with walls of Moogs. Boring nonsense.
A modern musician will not (and doesn't have to) let his creativity held back by the choice of a DAW.
When I look around me I only see producers and studios owning more than one DAW and system.
The price of an item matters, but not that much if you're passionate.
The old ones maybe, although I made hour long scores for modern-classical dance performances on a Roland W30 and a MC-808. The new ones are just a box with dedicated sequencer-software (DAW) with build in samplers and synths, very capable of doing any music created by your creative and original brain. Which should be the topic, not a tool.
- KVRAF
- 8845 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
The new tools as well. Just listen to the majority of pieces made with a certain tool. I cannot tell for any piece made with Live, but the more boring ones I can tell, just by listening...; - )
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- KVRist
- 250 posts since 16 Jul, 2014
Pricing bitwig to help the secondhand license market is probably the last thing they care about.dellboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 am I almost bought Bitwig in the last sale,my reason for not going ahead was purely pragmatic. If I decided after X number of months that I did not want it, I would have to list it as --- "Bitwig for sale, X number of months remaining"----
The error of all these pricing experiments is that it assumes someone is going to stick with the product.
http://Freshby6.com
Bitwig since 1.0
Bitwig since 1.0