"Cheap" hardware synth for techno?

[Uncle E]

Most of this Prophet sounds comes from FX, saturation, distortion, EQ, etc.

It sounds to me that you’re on a good track now so don’t think I’m trying to change your mind, it’s just funny that you’re making this comment about that sound. When you first posted it, I thought “That’s exceptional, I want the plugin that sounds like THAT!”

Although deadmau5 has equipment worth millions probably, he uses init presets from Serum, and can you tell it's not analogue? Probably not.

Most people in this thread can hear the difference. Serum is proudly digital. That said, I always preferred Deadmau5’s early stuff, pre-Serum and pre-analog.

FWIW, I personally achieved my hardware/software zen when I found the right controller. I’ve been selling off all my hardware ever since.

[isuckatproducing]

Most of this Prophet sounds comes from FX, saturation, distortion, EQ, etc.

It sounds to me that you’re on a good track now so don’t think I’m trying to change your mind, it’s just funny that you’re making this comment about that sound. When you first posted it, I thought “That’s exceptional, I want the plugin that sounds like THAT!”

My point was if I was to invest in hardware I want to get some phat sounds and not lame 1 osc synths.

I bet that sound can be recreated in ES2 in Logic which is probably like 20 years old.

[kritikon]

That's a pretty dismissive attitude. We're talking about a guy who used to design/engineer analogue synths and modules for a living. A guy with 50+ years of relevant industry experience and a far greater depth of knowledge than you and I will ever have on the subject. But because his opinion doesn't align with yours, it "means nothing". It's particularly interesting coming from a guy who owns both analogue and digital hardware.

His experience is irrelevant to mine. Doesn't really matter who he is. He's subjectively telling us how he prefers using sw. I subjectively prefer to mostly use hw. I'm sure he knows far more than I'll ever know about how these things work inside - why does that make him right about a purely subjective opinion? I'm not daft enough to argue circuits with him, I'm arguing that for me the user experience doesn't and likely never will apply.

How is using a mouse any more painful than turning knobs and flicking switches? Surely it's just a matter of improving the ergonomics of your deskspace or finding an alternative input device? Maybe a Wacom tablet and stylus or a trackball mouse?

Nope - tried trackballs. Better but not good. Tablet - not even close to how I prefer to input data. If you don't get RSI then you cannot know how different flicking switches and turning knobs is to diddling with mice/screens. It is day and night. It just simply is.

I don't understand this at all. For 20+ years, hardware was the bane of my existence. It made writing, recording and performing an order of magnitude more difficult than it ever needed to be. I can't tell you how many hundreds of hours I spent trying to optimise everything for the best experience, time and energy I'd much rather have put into writing and performing. Playing my Uno Pro or my Analog Keys or my Korg microKeys 2 feels pretty much like the same experience to me but what's involved in getting everything ready to play is where hardware starts to annoy me. I have to have a mixer and I need powerboards to plug it all in and hundreds of dollars worth of leads to connect it all up.

Quite right. Now flip it 180 degrees and that's my experience. Absolutely hw has its downsides but the downsides to sw outweigh it for me. Using solely sw would be the bane of my existence.

When I switch to my Erae Touch, the software experience goes to another level where my hardware can't follow. Sadly, arthritis makes playing the Erae and my Roli stuff far too painful these days, so I've had to give up using them, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging their superiority when it comes to expressive performance.

Bingo. That's what mouse/trackball etc does to me. I can appreciate how they work but I can't use them.

[BONES]

His experience is irrelevant to mine. Doesn't really matter who he is. He's subjectively telling us how he prefers using sw.

Yes, and objectively telling us why. You can't dismiss part of what he says because it doesn't suit you. But, again, you have both analogue and digital synths, so why does it matter to you at all? What he has to say about software applies equally to digital hardware. Or did you not buy one of the recent Korg digital hardware synths - OpSix or ModWave or WaveState?

I subjectively prefer to mostly use hw. I'm sure he knows far more than I'll ever know about how these things work inside - why does that make him right about a purely subjective opinion?

Yeah, I think you are concentrating on the wrong aspect of it. My takeaway wasn't that everyone should use software but that there is no inherent sonic advantage in using analogue hardware over digital hardware or software. Yes, he plumps for the convenience of an ITB solution but that seemed more of a side issue to his main argument to me.

Now flip it 180 degrees and that's my experience. Absolutely hw has its downsides but the downsides to sw outweigh it for me.

I don't see any downsides when you compare the two things side-by-side, beyond your fairly unique situation. As in, literally not a single downside. It sounds at least as good, probably better, it's easier to work with, it's more reliable, it's far more portable and it is way, way, way more inspiring, for the simple reason that it's all right at your fingertips, you don't have to f**k around trying to get it all to work together. OK, so RSI prevents you from taking advantage of all that, it should not prevent you from seeing and understanding how much you are missing out on. I'm the last person on Earth who would poo-poo Erae or Roli. Even though I can't use them any more, I can still acknowledge the superior experience they have to offer those who don't have arthritis and look on with envy to what others are doing with them.

[kritikon]

Yes, and objectively telling us why. You can't dismiss part of what he says because it doesn't suit you. But, again, you have both analogue and digital synths, so why does it matter to you at all? What he has to say about software applies equally to digital hardware. Or did you not buy one of the recent Korg digital hardware synths - OpSix or ModWave or WaveState?

Not sure why my hw being analogue or digital is relevant? If it sounds good I buy it whether digital or analogue. Sure, I mostly use analogues but I don't personally care how it makes noise. Wavestate is one of my favourite synths and it's absolutely pure digital in sound and nature. Best bass machine I have is Opsix. Beats the shit out of any 303 (though nowhere near as fun to actually use)

Yeah, I think you are concentrating on the wrong aspect of it. My takeaway wasn't that everyone should use software but that there is no inherent sonic advantage in using analogue hardware over digital hardware or software. Yes, he plumps for the convenience of an ITB solution but that seemed more of a side issue to his main argument to me.

I don't disagree. But whatever his reasons for using sw are...they don't apply to me. If I could sit and use sw for hours on end without hurting it's possible I could be happy with it. But I can't and I also don't want to. That's why I dismiss his user experience as being irrelevant. He could be Einstein, but his experience and choices would still be irrelevant to mine. We're not all the same and never will be. His genius at sound design and whatever is a completely different matter...

I don't see any downsides when you compare the two things side-by-side, beyond your fairly unique situation. As in, literally not a single downside. It sounds at least as good, probably better, it's easier to work with, it's more reliable, it's far more portable and it is way, way, way more inspiring, for the simple reason that it's all right at your fingertips, you don't have to f**k around trying to get it all to work together. OK, so RSI prevents you from taking advantage of all that, it should not prevent you from seeing and understanding how much you are missing out on. I'm the last person on Earth who would poo-poo Erae or Roli. Even though I can't use them any more, I can still acknowledge the superior experience they have to offer those who don't have arthritis and look on with envy to what others are doing with them.

I can see how others benefit from it, but still irrelevant to me. It's more difficult to work with, less inspiring, some flavours of digital sound crap (wavetable, granular) and getting things to work together is not a chore, in fact it's often part of the fun. Process vs end results. You and I are probably at opposite ends of that spectrum so we're never going to see our tools in the same way. TBH I don't give a rat's arse if I even get an end result sometimes, whereas my enjoyment can often wholly be the process of putting a track together even if I delete that track at the end or it ends up going nowhere. Your focus seems to be purely the end result and minimizing the process, so obvs I get why you see sw as advantageous. But that's not a given for everyone.

[chk071]

Although deadmau5 has equipment worth millions probably, he uses init presets from Serum, and can you tell it's not analogue? Probably not.

I don't really think the fun with analog hardware comes from producing music. Actually, that would be the part I would enjoy the least with them, as it's pretty much a PITA to work with (analog) hardware. The fun is rather in jamming around with them, IMO. Some of them simply sound great, and, yes, better than digital hardware or software. If you need that extra bit of sound when producing music is an entirely different question, and, I would probably answer that with "no".

There's some seriously good software these days, so, in either case, you wouldn't come to a "wrong" decision. Of course, depending what software you use. But, that's the same in both worlds.

I would rather recommend to find out what sounds best to you in software. It took me quite a while, but, I'm totally happy with the stuff I own now. I don't need or want much more. Until the next "no-brainer" sale, that is.

[Shabdahbriah]

Although deadmau5 has equipment worth millions probably, he uses init presets from Serum, and can you tell it's not analogue? Probably not.

I don't really think the fun with analog hardware comes from producing music. Actually, that would be the part I would enjoy the least with them, as it's pretty much a PITA to work with (analog) hardware.

Perhaps you two could collaborate and name your band wesuckatproducing, with the qualifier:

'cause analog gear is not fun, and basically sucks, except that it sounds better than digital, which sucks more.

[isuckatproducing]

Although deadmau5 has equipment worth millions probably, he uses init presets from Serum, and can you tell it's not analogue? Probably not.

I don't really think the fun with analog hardware comes from producing music. Actually, that would be the part I would enjoy the least with them, as it's pretty much a PITA to work with (analog) hardware.

Perhaps you two could collaborate and name your band wesuckatproducing,

'cause analog gear is not fun, and basically sucks, except that it sounds better than digital, which sucks more.

Oh another troll.

[BONES]

Not sure why my hw being analogue or digital is relevant? If it sounds good I buy it whether digital or analogue.

Which means you have exactly the same overall attitude as Mark - you are not going to exclude a synth purely because it's digital. He didn't sell all his hardware because it was analogue, he sold it because he realised he didn't need it any more and it was worth a lot of money (and I mean a lot). He went down the path of softsynths but he might just as easily have swapped his room full of analogue gear for a big workstation synth.

He wasn't saying everyone should sell all their hardware, he was simply suggesting that softsynths have caught up and there is no objective reason to spend ridiculous amounts of money on classic analogues today because software is equally, if not more, capable of giving you what those things give you.

But whatever his reasons for using sw are...they don't apply to me.

So what? That's your personal business, it doesn't stop you from acknowledging that he's actually right, which is what you were doing.

That's why I dismiss his user experience as being irrelevant.

So you are completely incapable of looking beyond your own selfish needs? That's a bit disappointing.

I can see how others benefit from it, but still irrelevant to me. It's more difficult to work with, less inspiring, some flavours of digital sound crap (wavetable, granular)

Absolute bollocks! The curtain is finally drawn! How is a wavetable synth any worse than your Wavestate? Both use digital waveforms, if one is shit, I can't see how the other isn't, too. From the PPG Wave onwards, wavetable synthesis has a much richer history in hardware than it does ITB. Granular synthesis is a little more specialised, although Concept 2 has some amazing timbres you'd never pick as being made with a granular engine.

... getting things to work together is not a chore, in fact it's often part of the fun.

I think I'd rather put up with the pain of RSI than the pain of working with hardware. In fact, today is the day I am taking my Analog Keys and Ultranova to the second-hand music shop and it feels really good to be finally getting rid of them.

You and I are probably at opposite ends of that spectrum so we're never going to see our tools in the same way.

That shouldn't stop either of us from seeing the validity of other points of view, especially when they are so well explained.

TBH I don't give a rat's arse if I even get an end result sometimes, whereas my enjoyment can often wholly be the process of putting a track together even if I delete that track at the end or it ends up going nowhere. Your focus seems to be purely the end result and minimizing the process, so obvs I get why you see sw as advantageous.

Yeah, sort of, but I've derived a great deal of satisfaction, lo these past few years, just f**king about with covers. To be fair, part of the allure is that they start off as MIDI files, so a lot of the hard graft is done for me but there is still the satisfaction in taking that and turning it into something of my own - tweaking arrangements, working out how I'll sing them, etc. And now, as it turns out, I'll get to do it on stage. We've got a few gigs booked and we couldn't find any support bands, so we're both doing side-projects as supports for NOVAkILL. Sik has dozens of side-projects to draw on but all I've got are these covers, so that's what I'll be doing. Ultra-minimal set-up, too, just the RoG tablet and the tiniest MIDI controller I could find.

[kritikon]

Well there you have it - objective reason. I don't buy toys for objective reasons usually. It's almost entirely subjective. I don't buy a car solely on objective reasons that it gets me from A to B the quickest or cheapest etc. I don't buy clothes because they objectively cover my testicles and arse the most efficiently. Music and toying with it is one of the most subjective things I waste my time with. Objectivity has very little input. If I couldn't afford it I wouldn't buy toys, so the fact I can do music cheaper though more painfully and with less enjoyment by sw is again...irrelevant. It sounds good and it's fun to use is pretty well all that matters. Obvs not to that geezer in the vid, and I hope he gets whatever enjoyment he can eke out of his streamlined system. Sounds like joy kill to me.

[hcv242]

i really don't understand how you all get so worked up by someone who says that a novation bass station 2 didn't deliver what he wanted and at the same time says he does not have an audio interface to record synths or a simple usb->midi interface to sequence them

[isuckatproducing]

i really don't understand how you all get so worked up by someone who says that a novation bass station 2 didn't deliver what he wanted and at the same time says he does not have an audio interface to record synths or a simple usb->midi interface to sequence them

Who said I didn’t have audio interface?
And ever heard of a DAW?

[Shabdahbriah]

i really don't understand how you all get so worked up by someone who says that a novation bass station 2 didn't deliver what he wanted and at the same time says he does not have an audio interface to record synths or a simple usb->midi interface to sequence them

Who said I didn’t have audio interface?
And ever heard of a DAW?

I've watched some and it sounds cool, but from what I can understand most synths use USB for signal but MIDI connection for controlling the synth with MIDI from within the DAW which would be cool...

The USB connection on synths is almost always for MIDI and will do everything the 5-pin MIDI will do and more (e.g., firmware updates, direct communication with a software editor). Audio over USB in synths is less common, but some of the synths mentioned here have that feature (e.g., Dreadbox Typhon, Analog Four).

But then how would I work the audio into DAW? Also afaik Waldorf Pulse 2 doesn't have presets?

You'll need an audio interface with at least one 1/4-inch input channel for a mono output synth (e.g., Minitaur) and two 1/4-inch inputs for synths with stereo outputs (e.g., Pulse 2). Which audio interface are you using?

The Pulse 2 has 500 preset slots and, as I recall, it comes from the factory with 400 presets. Compare that to the Minitaur's 128 presets.

I don't use a user interface, I would like to add Arturia Mk3 as a midi keyboard on top, and also record automation in Logic plugins with the knobs, and possibly play the synth with keyboard alone.

Would that be possible without much headache? And what cheapest audio interface could I get?

[kostabanderas]

...

FWIW, I personally achieved my hardware/software zen when I found the right controller. I’ve been selling off all my hardware ever since.

@Uncle E , if you don't mind, which controller is that?

[Uncle E]

Roland System-1