Roland cloud Juno 106

[Lbdunequest]

But you dont have the hardware now to compare?
Maybe you have blown out speakers? in uncalibrated studio? hearing loss? because Model 84 and Roland Cloud 106 sounds quite different here both in studio with proper setup and headphones.

If you want to claim Roland's plugin and Model 84 sound "quite different", show your work. Let's see the presets you used to come to that conclusion. Maybe one's just louder than the other. Maybe the filter cutoff doesn't match. Which one sounds similar to DCO-106? Are they both wrong? Post the actual presets if you can. If they're included with the plugins, which ones did you use?

As for me, I have a few presets I like to use to get a sense of how good a Juno emulation is. A great place to start is "A72 Pluck Sweep". It's one of the original factory presets on the hardware, and it's a really good demonstration of the character of both filters (LPF and HPF), envelope timing, the delayed LFO, and the type II chorus.

You'll find "A72 Pluck Sweep" in the factory presets of Model 84 and DCO-106. In Roland's plugin, it's called "1984 Pluck Sweep", but whoever made the patch didn't quite get it right, so I've attached my tweaked version. I'm not using any effects or tricks — I just tweaked the filters and volume. It's a bank with just one preset (there's no way to export individual presets), which you can import into the Roland plugin.

Load up all three synths and try them out. Play single notes — low ones and high ones. Play chords. Turn up your amazing "proper" headphones so you can hear the way the sound flutters as it fades away. It's a great preset.

Notice the Roland and Softube plugins sound really, really similar. You can pick out some subtle nuances, depending on which notes you play, but they are very close. Now play the same note(s) on DCO-106. It's immediately obvious that it sounds dull (because the filter is not modeled correctly) and lacks stereo width (because the chorus is not modeled correctly). The release curve is wrong too. Go ahead and try to fix the DCO-106 preset. You can try increasing the cutoff, or give it a bit more resonance, or adjust the ENV/KYBD amounts, but the filter character is still wrong. And of course there's nothing you can do about the chorus.

So this is just one example, and it's actually one of the ones where DCO-106 is sort of in the same ballpark (I picked this one because I'm trying to give it a fair shot). Now try "A46 Dark Pluck" — aka "1984 Dark Pluck" in the Roland version (in this case Roland's preset is close enough). I think this one speaks for itself.

There are a lot more examples, but I thought I'd start with those two and see if you want to keep going with this. If you still think I'm wrong, show me why.

I checked your suggested presets and Model 84 sounds very different then Roland Cloud version. Here is an audio file. Same presets you said, playing midi file. 1st is Softube, 2nd Roland and 3rd DCO. Yeah so here is my argument, i guess im right and you are wrong? I mean i just did what you suggested or i did somehow wrong that it sounds so different?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m8q28slf ... 1176a&dl=0

One thing i agree on is Chorus, DCO chorus doesnt sound as good.

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

[D-Fusion]

But you dont have the hardware now to compare?
Maybe you have blown out speakers? in uncalibrated studio? hearing loss? because Model 84 and Roland Cloud 106 sounds quite different here both in studio with proper setup and headphones.

If you want to claim Roland's plugin and Model 84 sound "quite different", show your work. Let's see the presets you used to come to that conclusion. Maybe one's just louder than the other. Maybe the filter cutoff doesn't match. Which one sounds similar to DCO-106? Are they both wrong? Post the actual presets if you can. If they're included with the plugins, which ones did you use?

As for me, I have a few presets I like to use to get a sense of how good a Juno emulation is. A great place to start is "A72 Pluck Sweep". It's one of the original factory presets on the hardware, and it's a really good demonstration of the character of both filters (LPF and HPF), envelope timing, the delayed LFO, and the type II chorus.

You'll find "A72 Pluck Sweep" in the factory presets of Model 84 and DCO-106. In Roland's plugin, it's called "1984 Pluck Sweep", but whoever made the patch didn't quite get it right, so I've attached my tweaked version. I'm not using any effects or tricks — I just tweaked the filters and volume. It's a bank with just one preset (there's no way to export individual presets), which you can import into the Roland plugin.

Load up all three synths and try them out. Play single notes — low ones and high ones. Play chords. Turn up your amazing "proper" headphones so you can hear the way the sound flutters as it fades away. It's a great preset.

Notice the Roland and Softube plugins sound really, really similar. You can pick out some subtle nuances, depending on which notes you play, but they are very close. Now play the same note(s) on DCO-106. It's immediately obvious that it sounds dull (because the filter is not modeled correctly) and lacks stereo width (because the chorus is not modeled correctly). The release curve is wrong too. Go ahead and try to fix the DCO-106 preset. You can try increasing the cutoff, or give it a bit more resonance, or adjust the ENV/KYBD amounts, but the filter character is still wrong. And of course there's nothing you can do about the chorus.

So this is just one example, and it's actually one of the ones where DCO-106 is sort of in the same ballpark (I picked this one because I'm trying to give it a fair shot). Now try "A46 Dark Pluck" — aka "1984 Dark Pluck" in the Roland version (in this case Roland's preset is close enough). I think this one speaks for itself.

There are a lot more examples, but I thought I'd start with those two and see if you want to keep going with this. If you still think I'm wrong, show me why.

I checked your suggested presets and Model 84 sounds very different then Roland Cloud version. Here is an audio file. Same presets you said, playing midi file. 1st is Softube, 2nd Roland and 3rd DCO. Yeah so here is my argument, i guess im right and you are wrong? I mean i just did what you suggested or i did somehow wrong that it sounds so different?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m8q28slf ... 1176a&dl=0

One thing i agree on is Chorus, DCO chorus doesnt sound as good.

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

[Lbdunequest]

But you dont have the hardware now to compare?
Maybe you have blown out speakers? in uncalibrated studio? hearing loss? because Model 84 and Roland Cloud 106 sounds quite different here both in studio with proper setup and headphones.

If you want to claim Roland's plugin and Model 84 sound "quite different", show your work. Let's see the presets you used to come to that conclusion. Maybe one's just louder than the other. Maybe the filter cutoff doesn't match. Which one sounds similar to DCO-106? Are they both wrong? Post the actual presets if you can. If they're included with the plugins, which ones did you use?

As for me, I have a few presets I like to use to get a sense of how good a Juno emulation is. A great place to start is "A72 Pluck Sweep". It's one of the original factory presets on the hardware, and it's a really good demonstration of the character of both filters (LPF and HPF), envelope timing, the delayed LFO, and the type II chorus.

You'll find "A72 Pluck Sweep" in the factory presets of Model 84 and DCO-106. In Roland's plugin, it's called "1984 Pluck Sweep", but whoever made the patch didn't quite get it right, so I've attached my tweaked version. I'm not using any effects or tricks — I just tweaked the filters and volume. It's a bank with just one preset (there's no way to export individual presets), which you can import into the Roland plugin.

Load up all three synths and try them out. Play single notes — low ones and high ones. Play chords. Turn up your amazing "proper" headphones so you can hear the way the sound flutters as it fades away. It's a great preset.

Notice the Roland and Softube plugins sound really, really similar. You can pick out some subtle nuances, depending on which notes you play, but they are very close. Now play the same note(s) on DCO-106. It's immediately obvious that it sounds dull (because the filter is not modeled correctly) and lacks stereo width (because the chorus is not modeled correctly). The release curve is wrong too. Go ahead and try to fix the DCO-106 preset. You can try increasing the cutoff, or give it a bit more resonance, or adjust the ENV/KYBD amounts, but the filter character is still wrong. And of course there's nothing you can do about the chorus.

So this is just one example, and it's actually one of the ones where DCO-106 is sort of in the same ballpark (I picked this one because I'm trying to give it a fair shot). Now try "A46 Dark Pluck" — aka "1984 Dark Pluck" in the Roland version (in this case Roland's preset is close enough). I think this one speaks for itself.

There are a lot more examples, but I thought I'd start with those two and see if you want to keep going with this. If you still think I'm wrong, show me why.

I checked your suggested presets and Model 84 sounds very different then Roland Cloud version. Here is an audio file. Same presets you said, playing midi file. 1st is Softube, 2nd Roland and 3rd DCO. Yeah so here is my argument, i guess im right and you are wrong? I mean i just did what you suggested or i did somehow wrong that it sounds so different?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m8q28slf ... 1176a&dl=0

One thing i agree on is Chorus, DCO chorus doesnt sound as good.

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

1st of i have a studio built for music + acoustic treatment + calibrated speakers
2nd analyzer doesnt lie and if analyzer doesnt lie that means your equipment or hearing is lying you or you are saying that your ears are more accurate then analyzer?

[D-Fusion]

If you want to claim Roland's plugin and Model 84 sound "quite different", show your work. Let's see the presets you used to come to that conclusion. Maybe one's just louder than the other. Maybe the filter cutoff doesn't match. Which one sounds similar to DCO-106? Are they both wrong? Post the actual presets if you can. If they're included with the plugins, which ones did you use?

As for me, I have a few presets I like to use to get a sense of how good a Juno emulation is. A great place to start is "A72 Pluck Sweep". It's one of the original factory presets on the hardware, and it's a really good demonstration of the character of both filters (LPF and HPF), envelope timing, the delayed LFO, and the type II chorus.

You'll find "A72 Pluck Sweep" in the factory presets of Model 84 and DCO-106. In Roland's plugin, it's called "1984 Pluck Sweep", but whoever made the patch didn't quite get it right, so I've attached my tweaked version. I'm not using any effects or tricks — I just tweaked the filters and volume. It's a bank with just one preset (there's no way to export individual presets), which you can import into the Roland plugin.

Load up all three synths and try them out. Play single notes — low ones and high ones. Play chords. Turn up your amazing "proper" headphones so you can hear the way the sound flutters as it fades away. It's a great preset.

Notice the Roland and Softube plugins sound really, really similar. You can pick out some subtle nuances, depending on which notes you play, but they are very close. Now play the same note(s) on DCO-106. It's immediately obvious that it sounds dull (because the filter is not modeled correctly) and lacks stereo width (because the chorus is not modeled correctly). The release curve is wrong too. Go ahead and try to fix the DCO-106 preset. You can try increasing the cutoff, or give it a bit more resonance, or adjust the ENV/KYBD amounts, but the filter character is still wrong. And of course there's nothing you can do about the chorus.

So this is just one example, and it's actually one of the ones where DCO-106 is sort of in the same ballpark (I picked this one because I'm trying to give it a fair shot). Now try "A46 Dark Pluck" — aka "1984 Dark Pluck" in the Roland version (in this case Roland's preset is close enough). I think this one speaks for itself.

There are a lot more examples, but I thought I'd start with those two and see if you want to keep going with this. If you still think I'm wrong, show me why.

I checked your suggested presets and Model 84 sounds very different then Roland Cloud version. Here is an audio file. Same presets you said, playing midi file. 1st is Softube, 2nd Roland and 3rd DCO. Yeah so here is my argument, i guess im right and you are wrong? I mean i just did what you suggested or i did somehow wrong that it sounds so different?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m8q28slf ... 1176a&dl=0

One thing i agree on is Chorus, DCO chorus doesnt sound as good.

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

1st of i have a studio built for music + acoustic treatment + calibrated speakers
2nd analyzer doesnt lie and if analyzer doesnt lie that means your equipment or hearing is lying you or you are saying that your ears are more accurate then analyzer?

I just fired up voxengo Span and i see the difference i am hearing very clearly there so i don't think it is my ears.

Lots of nasty spikes in the mid-highs on the DCO 106 which is the sound that is bothering me.

Try a different comparison instead with Little to moderate Release time and not this mushy mess as a comparison instead and maybe you can hear it too.

[Lbdunequest]

I checked your suggested presets and Model 84 sounds very different then Roland Cloud version. Here is an audio file. Same presets you said, playing midi file. 1st is Softube, 2nd Roland and 3rd DCO. Yeah so here is my argument, i guess im right and you are wrong? I mean i just did what you suggested or i did somehow wrong that it sounds so different?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m8q28slf ... 1176a&dl=0

One thing i agree on is Chorus, DCO chorus doesnt sound as good.

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

1st of i have a studio built for music + acoustic treatment + calibrated speakers
2nd analyzer doesnt lie and if analyzer doesnt lie that means your equipment or hearing is lying you or you are saying that your ears are more accurate then analyzer?

I just fired up voxengo Span and i see the difference i am hearing very clearly there so i don't think it is my ears.

Lots of nasty spikes in the mid-highs on the DCO 106 which is the sound that is bothering me.

Try a different comparison instead with Little to moderate Release time and not this mushy mess as a comparison instead and maybe you can hear it too.

Then check your eyes too. The point was to compare same presets. No need to search for excuses why you are wrong, just admit it.

[D-Fusion]

The DCO 106 sounded very bright compared to the others in this one.

A Emulation has failed if it doesn't sound close to what it is emulating out of the box.
You can shape most synths to sound similar if you add effects and a Equalizer in the Chain.

Are you sure you didnt mistaken? 1st one is the brightest (also analyzer shows it) which is Model 84
2nd is Roland cloud and 3rd DCO, both are similar in terms of brightness

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

1st of i have a studio built for music + acoustic treatment + calibrated speakers
2nd analyzer doesnt lie and if analyzer doesnt lie that means your equipment or hearing is lying you or you are saying that your ears are more accurate then analyzer?

I just fired up voxengo Span and i see the difference i am hearing very clearly there so i don't think it is my ears.

Lots of nasty spikes in the mid-highs on the DCO 106 which is the sound that is bothering me.

Try a different comparison instead with Little to moderate Release time and not this mushy mess as a comparison instead and maybe you can hear it too.

Then check your eyes too. The point was to compare same presets. No need to search for excuses why you are wrong, just admit it.

Ok i give up

[Mogular]

I am scratching my head a little bit on the example that's been given. I only have access to the softube and the Roland cloud versions. Whilst they don't sound exactly the same, they certainly sound very close, and the Roland cloud one on my machine doesn't exhibit any of the problematic lack of frequency in the given example.
I made an attempt at mimicking the chords that were used, and tried to match the two synths, both in terms of volume and overall sound.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zng6np1m ... a1ys1&dl=0

the first two examples are:
Softube with the default preset
Roland Cloud tweaked to match the softube

following that is:
Roland Cloud with the default preset
Softube tweaked to match the Roland

There are some gotchas to be aware of when comparing the two.
First of all, the volumes of the saw and square tooth oscillators on the softube are fixed, and in my experiments I could match that with the Roland by turning both of those up to their maximum.
When comparing the Softube with the default Roland cloud preset, given that I could not adjust the volume of the softube oscillators, I instead pulled the volume up to maximum on the Roland, so this is not exactly as it sounds when it's first instantiated.
Secondly, the patches are different in that the Softube has LFO modulation applied to the pulse width and the filter. I have tried to match that on the Roland as closely as I could.

[Mogular]

Here are some more examples, this time I pulled down the recording of the original preset from Synth Mania, and I also got some audio from a YouTube video going through all the presets on an original Juno 106.
I've laid it all out in a timeline and then made an attempt to emulate each clip, including the cherry audio DCO-106. for pretty much all of them I had to do a bit of tweaking, however the second half (which is referencing the YouTube clip) the cherry audio and softube presets are pretty much default, while the Roland one needed to have LFO added to the pulse width modulation and the filter.
So what you are hearing here, is the Synth Mania recording before each software version, with the order being:

1. Cherry Audio
2. Softube
3. Roland

and then the second half is the YouTube clip proceeding the same software synthesizers in the same order

My concern with this test is that there is something else going on with the synth mania recording, or it is a recording of a very idiosyncratic Juno. I really don't know, but I wasn't able to get any of them super close to that recording, whereas in the second half at least the first two examples are quite close.

I'm happy to share the logic files that this recording and the previous one come from, if anyone it wants to have a go at improving my efforts.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i2ygfuuq ... nn9fr&dl=0

[Dark Fiber]

1.st one sound more like what a Juno Emulation should sound like and the second is played at lower volume but sounds more mushy and the third one sounds almost like a messy bad glassy FM Church bell sound.

Not shure what speakers you are listening thru but you hear the difference very clearly on high quality Headphones.

Number 2 and 3 sound awfull compared to Number 1.

And drowning the sound at extreme Release settings doesn't help the Comparison at all.

I don't think there is any need for such an exaggeration. Maybe it is because of the attacking/defensive way of communicating, but this discussion is helped more by staying away from this amount of hyperbole.

There are little nuances between those three examples, certainly not night and day differences.

[Dark Fiber]

double post

[Arashi]

Ultimately, anyone who wants a great Juno-106 plugin should just try each of the emulations and use whichever one they like. There are too many factors involved to turn this into an exact science, and I simply don't have time for it. I think it's pretty clear the Roland and Softube ones are both excellent, and DCO-106 is mediocre at best, but everyone can and should make up their own mind.

Don't forget the Juno-6/60 is an amazing synth too, and there are several good emulations. Arturia, Roland, and TAL have all done a fine job.

Also, the Alpha Juno is really underrated and excellent as well, and was mostly disliked for its lack of physical controls (the plugins are actually easier to use!). There are only a couple emulations available, and I think TAL-Pha is a slam dunk, but AudioRealism ReDominator is still pretty decent.

[Mogular]

I was totally with you regarding the cherry audio, but if you listen to the examples that I posted, you should be able to hear that the cherry audio is actually a lot closer in matching the factory presets than the Roland is. The softube one completely nails it but I would suggest that actually the cherry audio is a close second, and the Roland one is actually more different than I would have hoped (particularly given that I have invested in a system 8 and the Roland cloud ecosystem). The filter on the Roland one in particular seems to behave differently to both of the other ones
I really did not expect this at all

[Arashi]

I was totally with you regarding the cherry audio, but if you listen to the examples that I posted, you should be able to hear that the cherry audio is actually a lot closer in matching the factory presets than the Roland is. The softube one completely nails it but I would suggest that actually the cherry audio is a close second, and the Roland one is actually more different than I would have hoped (particularly given that I have invested in a system 8 and the Roland cloud ecosystem). The filter on the Roland one in particular seems to behave differently to both of the other ones
I really did not expect this at all

Your experience is very different from mine, but I'll have a listen to your examples when I get a chance and see if I can reproduce it here. It's worth noting that Roland didn't do a great job recreating some of the factory presets in the plugin, so in many cases I've had to adjust them. In every case where I compared presets across the three, I tried to get them all to match as best I could, and almost always found it fairly easy to get the Roland and Softube plugins to sound very close, while DCO-106 is usually noticeably different (and IMO subjectively sounds worse).

[Mogular]

yes I kept thinking about your experience when I was trying to match things up, and with a synth like a Juno it shouldn't be that hard. but I really was questioning my abilities to match things when I was using the Roland version. I actually spent a lot more time comparing the YouTube video with each of the different versions, and pretty much every time the Roland version sounded different, and I couldn't tweak it to match 100%. Whereas again and again the softube and cherry audio was pretty much bang on. maybe they used that video as their reference point when they were building those instruments

I think I compared about 50 presets, and after that it really seemed pointless to do anymore. it wouldn't be to hard to do an exhaustive comparison, but I can't imagine anyone would listen to it, or even care after the first 10 or 20

[PAK]

One thing possibly overlooked, on the Roland plugins, is some of the controls are bi-directional. Filter LFO, ENV-1 and KYBD etc go from -128 to 128, and you have to ignore anything below 0 to stay within hardware range.

Things like high / maximum resonance vary between hardware, and Roland’s approach does seem more towards ideal calibration specs rather than any individual unit. But differences shouldn’t be huge..

If anyone can name a specific Factory preset (Edit: I see A-72 and A-46 were mentioned) )
A-72 aka "6-4 1984 Pluck Sweep" - Roland requires you turn the volume up towards the mid 50's as it starts quieter than Softube. It's also duller - turn the VCA Tone control up a bit to compensate. With those tweaked VCF Res (set a bit higher on Roland) and Kybd adjustments should definitely get you fairly ballpark. Softube's used a slightly different shaped KYBD curve which, if you match the upper keys, means Softube's tends to let a bit more bass through on the lower notes. The release holds a little more on Softube's too, so you'd have to raise the release on Rolands slightly to try to match.

Based on A-72 I'd still say you can get 'em pretty close and where neither is vastly better. That said I prefer Softube's, on that one, slightly