Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[SLiC]

BTW - has Ableton fixed the absence of ”load preset or bank) button of Vst3 plugins in the Live 11/Win for the Live 12?

I have no idea what this is or why you need it? (I have Bitwig and Live)

You have no idea why I need to load presets? Really? I use presets all the time.

I have always been able to load VST3 pre-sets in Live 11 and 12, it was the absence of a 'button' which is what I was referring to, its just loads from the plugin same as VST2 did?

[chk071]

Or it is just your assumption that they do.

What's my assumption here exactly?

Where should I start? You assumed that Yorrr claims that Live is superior to Bitwig because it's more popular. You assumed that he "presents Ableton Live and Bitwig as mutually exclusive options, implying that one must be superior to the other", You assumed that he "implies that "real music production, live performances, and pro work" are only associated with Ableton Live and other established DAWs".

I don't read any of that out of what he wrote here.

And I also don't think we have to discuss that Live is the vastly more used option. Which usually is for a reason.

But, the misunderstanding here probably is, once again, that nobody said that nobody should use Bitwig if it suits him or herself better. That's why it's so great that there are many options available. It doesn't mean that the one or the other software doesn't do the one or the other thing better than the other though.

[SLiC]

Yup, there a\re a lot of technical reasons why Linux is better than Windows...but I don't see Microsoft loosing a lot of sleep over it! Horses for courses, as they say.

[muzicxs]

Where should I start?

You assumed that Yorrr claims that Live is superior to Bitwig because it's more popular.

The context of his arguments where "real music production". So no, nothing I said is assumed. I may have exaggerated my wording a bit, as I could have used the word "better" as well. Better, in the context of "real music production". Whatever that means.

You assumed that he "presents Ableton Live and Bitwig as mutually exclusive options, implying that one must be superior to the other".

Again no assumption, in the context of "real music production". If you follow Yorrr's arguments then you will automatically be guided to Ableton, but only if you want to produce "real music". If you like sound design and tinkering you should go to Bitwig. Everyone serious about "real music production" should go to Ableton. That's what an exclusive option means.

You assumed that he "implies that "real music production, live performances, and pro work" are only associated with Ableton Live and other established DAWs".

I think you are focussing on the wrong aspect here. He's explicitly mentioning "real" music production. That's a "No true Scotsman" fallacy by definition.

And I also don't think we have to discuss that Live is the vastly more used option.

We don't. It might, or might not be a deciding factor for someone.

Which usually is for a reason.

"For a reason" arguments are so weak. Especially combined with "usually". Making it possible to weasel out of everything. Is not even saying anything either, so well done.

[chk071]

"For a reason" arguments are so weak. Especially combined with "usually".

Well, I could list the numerous applications where professional software which is brand leader excels compared to others, but, that would be pointless. Why is Photoshop the brand leader, for example, although it costs a fortune? Because it's pretty damn good at what it does. As simple as that. Of course, it is also the "weapon of choice" when you learn the art, but, that is due to the same reason.

My experience with audio software is that the popular stuff isn't popular for nothing. Whether or not you like that kind of argument is irrelevant.

[SLiC]

If the widespread use of Live (irrespective of why) may be deciding factor for someone, then obviously it is relevant to someone asking which to use?

If you are not a YT fan, Bitwig has very few resources for learning and as yet no one has made any dedicated Bitwig hardware (or to my knowledge commercial sound packs or instruments) as the user base is probably still to small (and may always be, who knows).

It matters to some people, its relevant. For example, I have quite a large collection of 'real' books on Live and MAX (look at what is available for MAX vs. the Grid..https://cycling74.com/books) and that matters to me.

[pdxindy]

But nowhere near the amount of producers and musicians using Ableton Live. Not even close, not in the same league. And that’s why I said “mainly”.

Live has many more users of every kind. The majority of Live users are hobbyists, like with most DAW's. That doesn't make it a DAW just for tinkerers any more than Bitwig is.

[SLiC]

This is a great deal if you do have any version of Live, in my opinion truly great sounds/racks/clips - maybe not totally appropriate for the thread, but emphasis the benefits of having 3rd party developers (when its great at least!)

Acoustix & Tronix for Ableton Live by Sample Logic- both for $40!

https://audioplugin.deals/product/acous ... ple-logic/

[pdxindy]

Bitwig have been growing for 10 years now, I think if a lot of people were going to switch thy would have done it by now...Live offers a lot of reason to stay with it (especially if you already know it well) so its not an easy sell at all.

In terms of popularity, what matters to me is that there are enough people using Bitwig that it stays in business and the developers stay excited to keep developing it. Fortunately it seems to have passed that threshold a while ago.

Over on the Bitwig Discord there are new people every week, trying out and/or switching to Bitwig. Some of them are coming from Live, some from other DAW's and some new altogether.

I would say the userbase is growing. So I'm satisfied that Bitwig is solid and is not going to disappear. Live 12 looks like an excellent update and I'm glad for Live users. Same for updates for other DAW's. And when Bitwig announces 5.2 in the next few weeks, I'll have some cool new stuff to play with too.

Bitwig and Live is an obvious comparison, because they both have a big focus on the Clip Launcher and similarities such as the device pane. But for me, the features I most want added to Bitwig are from other DAW's and are ones Live also doesn't have.

[SLiC]

In terms of popularity, what matters to me is that there are enough people using Bitwig that it stays in business and the developers stay excited to keep developing it. Fortunately it seems to have passed that threshold a while ago.

I truly hope so, my main concern is that they don't get aquired by NI (Francisco Partners).
Now if they want to merge with U-HE I will be OK with that

[pdxindy]

and as yet no one has made any dedicated Bitwig hardware (or to my knowledge commercial sound packs or instruments) as the user base is probably still to small (and may always be, who knows).

Expert Sleepers has a Bitwig version of their ES-8 module with a Bitwig faceplate and comes with Bitwig 8-Track. That's the closest thing to dedicated Bitwig hardware

However, there are an increasing number of hardware controllers that work with Bitwig out of the box. A few years ago, Bitwig was hardly mentioned in various company's marketing, but now it is.

Reliq-Instruments is near to releasing their Reliq controller. It's the most interesting hardware controller I've seen to date. It's a high-end hybrid analog/digital/midi controller. It can function standalone or with a DAW and because the developers are into Bitwig, it's going to have Bitwig integration when shipping... yay! Looking forward to receiving mine!

[pdxindy]

In terms of popularity, what matters to me is that there are enough people using Bitwig that it stays in business and the developers stay excited to keep developing it. Fortunately it seems to have passed that threshold a while ago.

I truly hope so, my main concern is that they don't get aquired by NI (Francisco Partners).
Now if they want to merge with U-HE I will be OK with that

That would be so horrible! (NI I mean). Please don't even say it out loud!

[SLiC]

Reliq-Instruments is near to releasing their Reliq controller. It's the most interesting hardware controller I've seen to date. It's a high-end hybrid analog/digital/midi controller. It can function standalone or with a DAW and because the developers are into Bitwig, it's going to have Bitwig integration when shipping... yay! Looking forward to receiving mine!

Yes, I almost joined the kick starter for that but as I had just got the PUSH 3SA so I held back- still watching it with interest (on the Discord Channel) and I never say never

[pdxindy]

Reliq-Instruments is near to releasing their Reliq controller. It's the most interesting hardware controller I've seen to date. It's a high-end hybrid analog/digital/midi controller. It can function standalone or with a DAW and because the developers are into Bitwig, it's going to have Bitwig integration when shipping... yay! Looking forward to receiving mine!

Yes, I almost joined the kick starter for that but as I had just got the PUSH 3SA so I held back- still watching it with interest (on the Discord Channel) and I never say never

It's a unique bit of gear. At least I haven't seen anything like it. It fits my setup of hardware and software and modular and it's a bonus that it has Bitwig integration.

[SLiC]

Reliq-Instruments is near to releasing their Reliq controller. It's the most interesting hardware controller I've seen to date. It's a high-end hybrid analog/digital/midi controller. It can function standalone or with a DAW and because the developers are into Bitwig, it's going to have Bitwig integration when shipping... yay! Looking forward to receiving mine!

Yes, I almost joined the kick starter for that but as I had just got the PUSH 3SA so I held back- still watching it with interest (on the Discord Channel) and I never say never

It's a unique bit of gear. At least I haven't seen anything like it. It fits my setup of hardware and software and modular and it's a bonus that it has Bitwig integration.

Closest thing I had seen was the oxi one (and I did get that on kickstarter!) it also has a eurorack pipe, but the reliq looks next level…