Is Music Really Universal?

[Hink]

I'm not sure that counts, I think it takes time for the the other senses to adapt...but then I'm no expert. I do agree that feeling vibrations do not produce the same effect as hearing, but I cannot speak to how those vibrations are perceived by the deaf

[dark water]

One of my percussion heroes (not born deaf, but profoundly deaf since 8-12 years old).


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3V6zNER4g

Well worth watching her 'What do artists do all day' interview too.

[emcee]

I'm not sure that counts, I think it takes time for the the other senses to adapt...but then I'm no expert. I do agree that feeling vibrations do not produce the same effect as hearing, but I cannot speak to how those vibrations are perceived by the deaf

I can speak from experience - about 15 years back played a gig for a friend of our singer at the time's best mate, who's wife (and family) was deaf. So we were asked to put the speakers on the floor, in front of the stage and not up on joists as we normally would. Half the 300 odd attending were deaf. They were all enjoying the show, until someone decided to turn off the lights. Got all these groans, and a few boo's. Then it clicked - they couldn't talk/sign to each other! So we had to play lights on for the duration.
But back to the vibration thing - after the show his wife did say that her and her friends could "feel" what kind of music we were playing and had songs they liked over others..

[harryupbabble]

If music really is universal then shouldn't everyone understand experimental music immediately? But aren't most people's initial reaction to experimental music kind of, and I paraphrase "What the hell is this?", a total lack of understanding?

And, for example, wouldn't "thrash metal" music sound experimental to the bulk of, for example, the Celine Dion crowd? And that only with repeated and constant listening would the Celine Dion crowd begin to understand "thrash metal" music? And I hate to use the word brainwashing but isn't repeated listenings to a certain kind of music just that, brainwashing? With enough listenings to Celine Dion's music, could lovers of "trash metal" music eventually understand her songs the way her fans generally understand them?

Doesn't the definition of "universal" require immediate understanding of whatever that thing or concept is? For example, aren't geometric figures truly universal? A circle is immediately understood everywhere to be that? Also, that the sun is not a box but round? But nothing is universal to a toddler? That everything will first have to be taught, drilled in, or brainwashed in?

Also, if music is really universal then how come a person can make music and other persons will not create the same lyrics for that music? How come the lyrics for Greensleeves is so different from the lyrics of "What Child Is This?" when both songs uses the same melodies? The lyricist for Greensleeves understood the music differently than the lyricist for "What Child Is This" did?

[JumpingJackFlash]

what does EVERY culture have in common? Music!

But cultures have different music, and that music usually relies on shared cultural traits to fully understand.

So with music of a common descent or shared ancestry, there will probably be familiar things you can latch onto and appreciate. But there is a lot of music which has nothing in common with anything one might be familiar with and so there is no common ground that leads to shared understanding.

In other words, just hearing the same (kind of) song in a different language isn't really a true test of universality. I've certain heard Indian music for example which I cannot identify with at all; that is, any meaning is lost on me because I don't share the same background.

[jancivil]

If music really is universal then shouldn't everyone understand experimental music immediately? But aren't most people's initial reaction to experimental music kind of, and I paraphrase "What the hell is this?", a total lack of understanding?

No. This confuses the generality of the saying with specificity.
IE: I would think that the more exposure to Celine Dion the more one understands that this isn't anything good; but I could well be wrong about that specifically while being obviously right on the meaning of "universal" most everybody understands from in that saying.

Also, different lyrics to the tune mean different understanding of some music HOW? Both lyrics have the same scansion.
Some instrumental tunes (Birdland, eg) had lyrics slapped on them later

[emcee]

Here's a plan.
Send Celine Dion into deep space (not her CD's or MP3's - Celine) and if the aliens "get it" then music is universal.
Happy to start a kickstart to fund this experiment.
NB: there's countless others we could also use for the experiment.

PS: if the aliens start war of the worlds with us due to them not "appreciating" Celine - delete this post.

[mcnoone]

I feel the "music is universal" thing, is just another saying in a long list of sayings that we need not take literally.

[fluffy_little_something]

Here's a plan.
Send Celine Dion into deep space (not her CD's or MP3's - Celine) and if the aliens "get it" then music is universal.
Happy to start a kickstart to fund this experiment.
NB: there's countless others we could also use for the experiment.

PS: if the aliens start war of the worlds with us due to them not "appreciating" Celine - delete this post.

I would not blame them for starting a war on earthlings if they were exposed to Celine Dion. Even I would go ballistic if I had to listen to her music

[fluffy_little_something]

Yesterday there was a Bollywood move on TV because of the holiday, and frankly, that Indian music sounds so alien to me. Other than recognizing it is music as well, I don't know what to do with it...

[aciddose]

Probably twerk or something.

[emcee]

Music is just noise with pleasing frequencies, so of course it's universal.
As in a triangle or circle are universal shapes.
And universal as in colours.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Music is just noise with pleasing frequencies

I would say "music" is more than just that.
But in any case, who decides what is "pleasing"? - Is that universal too?

And universal as in colours.

Like how rainbows are universal?

So how many colours are there in a rainbow?

7 you say?
Well no, not necessarily. Some cultures only recognise 6.
Are "indigo" and "violet" actually true, separate colours? - Does anyone ever mention them in any other context? - Or is this just a mantra you've learned - a cultural thing. So with music.

[emcee]

Well what's to say 3 mins of a sine wave isn't music? Who defines that "music" needs to be drums, bass, guitar, piano and vocals?
Again it's a cultural thing - in the backwoods of Oslo for example music might be a piano accordion player and a yodelller. In the arctic tundra it could be a guy playing walrus tusks. In Fitzroy it could be a kid playing a Novation Circuit.
It's a hard one to define because everyone's interpretation of "universal" differs.
My point is that it doesn't matter what continent or culture you're from, some things are global, I could be wrong with this assumption - but traffic lights, is red the colour for stop everywhere?
Does everyone know Elvis??
Ponderous..

[JumpingJackFlash]

Well what's to say 3 mins of a sine wave isn't music? Who defines that "music" needs to be drums, bass, guitar, piano and vocals?

It doesn't. It does need some order to it though. Sound by itself is not the same as music.

Again it's a cultural thing

Indeed.

My point is that it doesn't matter what continent or culture you're from, some things are global, I could be wrong with this assumption - but traffic lights, is red the colour for stop everywhere?

I don't know, but I'd bet there are some cultures that don't even have a system of "traffic lights", if not now, there certainly have been in the past (so the concept is meaningless). And even if "red means stop" is a global thing, it's so because man has developed it that way and the idea has spread around the world - it's still a cultural association, even if it's a global one. There is nothing intrinsic to the colour red that it should mean something that other colours don't. If aliens landed on our planet for example, they would almost certainly not have the same association.