Do All of Today's MIDI Controllers Suck For Controlling VA's?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I'm looking at getting a MIDI controller, and I honestly just can't find anything that fits my needs, which seem pretty standard honestly. I'm just looking for something that will allow me to control a great number of parameters on my VA's like Diva. The closes thing I can find to fitting my needs is the Nektar Panorama, but honestly, that's not enough knobs. I want:

1. Keyboard with good velocity response (currently have an Akai MPK61 mk1 and it's unusable here)
2. Lots of knobs (24 or more please)
3. At least 8 Faders (or 8 more knobs) for two sets of ADSR's
4. A decent selection of buttons
5. Mod-wheel, pitch wheel
6. If there was another knob or fader dedicated to master volume that'd be great
7. Ideally, the controls would be laid out in a synth style configuration
8. The ability to have multiple banks would be nice

Look at the Prophet '08...give me the MIDI controller only version of that! Should I just buy a Prophet '08 and use it as a MIDI controller?

It's crazy to me that virtual analogs are the biggest name in town when it comes to VI's, yet no one's designed a controller that looks like a synth and has enough knobs that users don't have to constantly feel like they're compromising. I thought about trying to build one "synth projects" style, but I'm really not handy enough to make that happen.

[rod_zero]

You are right, that kind of controller doesn't exist and I agree it is crazy. The stupid 8 encoders/8 faders layout in all controllers is so limited.

So, yes your best bet is a synth, a Nord Lead 2x could be found for a reasonable price. But not enough knobs still.

Roland system 1, or the 1m seems good candidates for this since they have so many knobs and good layout, the keyboard sucks but you could get a module.

But no matter how many knobs DIVA is specially very weird to map because of the different oscilators models, specially VCO2 requires tons of buttons for the waveforms and is just unmapable. it is the synth I want most to map but the hardest.

[Axis1~SL61]

ReMoteSL61:

I'm using a Novation ReMote SL61 -- it has (almost) everything you mention, incl. decent 5 octave keyboard with good velocity sensitivity, good AfterTouch, MIDI (both USB MIDI and 5pin MIDI), Pitch/modulation joystick and X/Y Touch-pad, connection for pedals, etc.. it has 16 knobs and 8 faders plus 24 switches for VI control.
Now, I'm aware that you want 24 knobs PLUS 8 faders, so apparently, it would not be enough, BUT with the system of pages in it's included Automap software and the help of the nice big LCDs you can virtualy multiply the physical surface controls, many, many times... if however, you want every physical control immidiately accessible (like the surface of an analog synth, with only one function per knob), you could later buy and add a cheaper ReMote 0 SL = same number of knobs and switches and faders as the SL61 but without the keyboard, and use it as a surface extention of the 61SL. They are designed to allow you to use both at the same time in the same computer. I never tried that myself (I only have the SL61) but I've seen videos of people using 2 ReMote SLs on the same computer.
All the other controllers I've seen from Korg, M-Audio, Arturia, NI, etc have much less knobs than the Novations. Maybe there are a few that could have more, but I don't know of anyone (Doepfer, maybe?... I'm not sure).
ReMote Zero:

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Should have mentioned that I've already got the Remote Zero SL. It's ok when combined with the Akai MPK61,but it's still not the all in one solution I'm looking for. I'm leaning towards getting a synth when it's time.

[Jim Y]

Could you ever have hardware (not touchscreen) controls that looks like the synth you want to control? Which synth would that be?
But you could have a synth that looks like the controller you have. Surely easier for the synth GUI to morph to match controller layout? Does that ever happen? Do any controller manufacturers even bundle a synth that looks like their controller? Maybe some do - it's a long time since I've looked at this market...
...because, I gave up with all this when I was faced with the synth GUI, the DAW control map GUI and the hardware controller ALL with completely different layouts. It's self contained hardware for me now.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Could you ever have hardware (not touchscreen) controls that looks like the synth you want to control? Which synth would that be?

I'm thinking a generic VA layout, that resembled a VA synthesizer but obviously wouldn't match up 1:1 to any synth. So imagine a generic layout based on a 3 oscillator VA synthesizer. If the synth you're using doesn't have a particular set of knobs (for instance, only 2 oscs) no problem, you just wouldn't assign those unused knobs, or would find uses for them other than what's labeled. Obviously, anything unique or esoteric wouldn't get mapped perfectly either, but you'd in theory, have plenty of knobs to cover other features.

So off the top of my head, I'm imagining:

Keyboard:
61 semi-weighted keys
Pitchbend and Modulation wheels

Oscillator Section (12 knobs, 6 buttons):
1 knob each for 1) Osc 1 Waveform, 2) Osc Tuning, 3) Osc Volume now multiply that by 3 oscillators
6 assignable buttons
1 knob each for 1) Osc Mod depth, 2) Env Amount, 3) Pulsewidth

Filter Section (7 knobs)
1 knob each for 1) Filter cutoff, 2) resonance, 3) filter envelope amount, 4) filter mod depth 5) keyboard tracking, 6) FM, 7) HP

LFO Section (4 knobs, 2 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) LFO speed, 2) LFO Depth x2 LFO's
2 buttons

Filter Envelope (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR

Amp Envelop (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
4 buttons below each fader

Master Section (4 knobs, 4 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) master volume, 2) glide
2 extra knobs (for effects, or other non-standard controls)
4 buttons

Tally that up and you should end up with something like 24 knobs, 14 buttons, and 8 faders for 46 total parameters (not including pitch/mod wheels and the keyboard). That would let you control I think the most common parameters on most VA's.

Compared to the standard 8 knob, 8 fader layout, something like this would be a Godsend to me. I think the new Prophets are probably the closest thing to this kind of controller at the moment.

[chk071]

ReMote Zero:

Wow, that thing looks really awesome. Me want. Unfortunately lacking budget for something like that atm...

[aMUSEd]

Virus Ti doubles as a good midi controller with a synth layout and built in customisable templates for different synths.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

Virus Ti doubles as a good midi controller with a synth layout and built in customisable templates for different synths.

i was just going to ask that! cheers. I haven't even thought of trying this!

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Wow, that thing looks really awesome. Me want. Unfortunately lacking budget for something like that atm...

I've got one and it's just "ok." The top row of knobs are endless rotaries which would be nice if they weren't stepped, so it's awkward to turn them for fine control. The bottom knobs are smooth at least. The faders aren't great but get the job done and it's got a ton of buttons which is nice. The pads are useless, the screen is terrible, the menus a nightmare, and programming it is a chore. It suffers from not being a DAW controller or a synth controller, so it's not sure what it is. That said, it's fitting the bill for me in the short term until I find something better.

EDIT:
Check out this thread if you want some similar, but I believe, better options:
viewtopic.php?f=102&t=461881

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Virus Ti doubles as a good midi controller with a synth layout and built in customisable templates for different synths.

I thought about that one, but the TI2 with no keyboard is more expensive than the Prophet '08 (with a keyboard) and I believe the latter has more knobs and is actually analog.

I keep eye-balling the synth-projects site and thinking about just trying to build my own, but I know it will take me years and halfway through I'll realize I shoulda just bought something (less aggravating and probably not much more money). Anyone want to build me a Synth Projects style custom controller? C'mon, you know you want to.

[chk071]

Wow, that thing looks really awesome. Me want. Unfortunately lacking budget for something like that atm...

I've got one and it's just "ok." The top row of knobs are endless rotaries which would be nice if they weren't stepped, so it's awkward to turn them for fine control. The bottom knobs are smooth at least. The faders aren't great but get the job done and it's got a ton of buttons which is nice. The pads are useless, the screen is terrible, the menus a nightmare, and programming it is a chore. It suffers from not being a DAW controller or a synth controller, so it's not sure what it is. That said, it's fitting the bill for me in the short term until I find something better.

EDIT:
Check out this thread if you want some similar, but I believe, better options:
viewtopic.php?f=102&t=461881

Yeah, actually eyeing one of those Launch Controls now, probably not the XL though, rather the smaller one.

[pdxindy]

Midi controllers suck for controlling softsynths in a sound design sense... unless it is a very simple synth or you are just tweaking a few performance controls...

I've tried lots of stuff and the mouse and computer screen is still vastly superior for sound design...

[chk071]

You're right. But for jamming, i like the knobs on my midi keyboard quite a lot. If i even have it plugged in of course, and don't use the virtual midi keyboard via my pc keyboard.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Midi controllers suck for controlling softsynths in a sound design sense... unless it is a very simple synth or you are just tweaking a few performance controls...

I've tried lots of stuff and the mouse and computer screen is still vastly superior for sound design...

I agree, but I think the problem can be dramatically improved upon. I view the biggest problems with creating patches on the current crop of keyboard controllers as...

1. Most don't have enough controls for sound design (patch creation) in the first place
2. No MIDI controller is laid out like a synthesizer (i.e. not inspiring to use)
3. Programming most MIDI controllers is about compromises
4. Most MIDI controllers also try to be DAW controllers (pads for Abelton, transport controls, knobs above faders for pan)
5. Most are meant for live controlling a few parameters on a per-synth or per-patch basis versus being about patch editing/creation

I think all of that could be fixed with a 40+ parameter keyboard controller laid out like a synth. It'd never work 100% of the time obviously, but you could really make something that's fun to use.