How Would You Rate This Analog Filter Emulation

[VariKusBrainZ]

Im no expert so cant judge the filter based on these samples which dont demonstrate alot to my ears

[Googly Smythe]

...At least VD is not a religious event...

Actually, every day is a religous event - way back when, each day of the year was assigned a saint to be celebrated. Feb 14 is St Valentine. Since then, lot of saints have been deemed fictitious by the RC church, St V amongst (among?) them.

(The VD shortening seems somehow appopriate).

Happy new year!

[fluffy_little_something]

Valentine must have been the saint of perfume makers, judging from all those irritating TV commercials

[HunterKiller]

Valentine must have been the saint of perfume makers, judging from all those irritating TV commercials

No.


A bit about Valentine:

Roman Christian who according to tradition was martyred during the persecution of Christians by Emperor Claudius II. Saint Valentine's Day was primarily celebrated in his honor, but was also inspired by another martyr named Valentine, who was bishop of Terni, a region in central Italy.

St. Valentine is considered the patron of lovers and especially of those unhappily in love. The feast day became a lovers' festival in the 14th century, probably as an extension of pagan love festivals and fertility rites celebrated in mid-February. Today it is marked by the exchange of romantic cards (valentines), flowers, and other gifts.

A bishop from the 3rd century CE. He was well-known for the help he gave to young Romans in writing love letters. In 269 he was beheaded by the Roman emperor. In the 18 century, his remains were removed from the catacombs of Rome and have remained since then in the church of the Holy Antonius in Madrid. Valentines Day is named after him.

[Ingonator]

I am never sure what "pushing a filter hard" means in the first place, is this an example?

Using a filter at Self oscillation where teh filter itself could produce sound (usually a Sine wave) without the need for an oscillator is quite extreme. Another quite "extreme" use is doing audio rate modulation of the Cutoff.
In both cases usually zero delay feedback filters do work better than analog emulations or pure digital synths without analog modeled filters.

If you never used a real analog or if it is long ago you maybe do no longer know how proper self oscillation should sound. Personally since around 12 years i lawys had at least one real analog snth here. For example the multmode filter in teh Pulse 2 could do slf oscillatiom with all 4 filter modes (24dB LPF, 12dB LPF, HPF, BPF).
It is also capable of doing Filter FM.
Anyway some good emulations like e.g. Diva, Saurus, Monark and the Xils Lab synths seem to do this properly too.
Of course there could be also a differnce when using Self oscillation in combination with the oscillators, not just when using the filter without Oscs. As already mentioned a bunch of digital synths or old emulations could not do self oscillation at all. Those synths when using settings for self oscillation (usually full Resonance) without the oscillators will stay quiet instda of producing a sound.
If they do not so good self oscillation they will produce a piercing, metallic or simply not so nice sound which you usually should not find in real analogs.

Examples of using Self oscillation (without oscillators) for sound design is creating certain kick drum sounds (BTW this works nicely with the filter in Xils Lab StiX but also other Xils Lab synths) and using a Sine with synth that do not include taht waveform.
With a dedicated Sine waveform available you could usully try to emulate comparable sounds without using self osillation.

[AnX]

Not all analog filters self oscillate....

[Ingonator]

Not all analog filters self oscillate....

Indeed and i have mentioed this in one of my posts at this thread.

FWIW both my Waldorf Pulse 2 and my Korg DW-8000 seem to do self oscillation properly and produce a cklean Sine wave that way.
Somewhere i foudn that the Poly 800 filter does not self oscillate while it uses the same Korg NJM2069 filter chip (but only one as the Poly 800 is paraphonic opposing to the DW-8000 taht has 8 chips with one for each voice).
The Mod joystick of teh DW-8000 has 3 functions (up = vibrato, down = filter LFO, left/rigt = pitch) and when used at self oscillation (and no Oscs) you could move the joystick down to add filter LFO which in the case of self oscilation adds vibrato to the sound.

The Korg DSS-1 seems to incklude teh same fuilter chips and there they seem to be resonant like in the DW-8000 while in the DSM-1 module version the filter seems to be non resonant which is quite strange IMO.

[Ingonator]

Hee is a video taht explains some of the things i already mentioned concerning self oscillation using a Minimoog Model D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVgIf71uWB4

This should also work properly with Minimoog emulations like e.g. NI Monark or Diva.

UPDATE:
Just checked with Arturia Minimoog V. Until around 2000 Hz Self oscillation seems to be OK (a more or less pure Sine) and then it sounds closer and closer to noise.
With filter key tracking at 100% at higher notes/octaeves the noise alraedy starts at a Cutoff setting below 400 Hz.

With NI Monark it stays a clean Sine over the whole audible range. I fisrt heard a noise but that was due to the "Leakage" parameter in the B page set to a quite high amount. With Leakage to off you get a clean sound.
Same seems to be true with the Minimoog filter in Diva.


UPDATE:
Just checked with TimewARP 2600 which is an older emulation without zdf filters. Self oscillation seem to be clean until a certain Cutoff frequency and then it seems to add more and more of a metallic/ringing noise wich usually should not happen with real analogs or proper emulatiins with zdf filters.

As alraedy mentioned in my other post above also my Pulse 2 and Korg DW-8000 hardware synths produce proper and clean results at self oscillation (which of course in the Pulse 2 could change when adding the built-in analog Drive).

Same could also happen with Korg plugins like e.g. Mono/poly wher at a certain Cutoff you get a metallic/ringing noise.

[AnX]

TBH, aside from making kick drums, i never use self oscillation. I rarely use high res settings and rarely use ARM on the filter....

All these 'extreme' settings that require zdff to sound 'good' have very little effect on how i use soft synths....of course, if i want analog sounds i just turn on my analog hardware...

[Ingonator]

While i just checked some of my synths (bot hard- and sofware) concerning filter self-oscillation (also ee my posts above) i now also checked Waves Element which with v2 introduced zero delay feedback filters.

I just found that Element v2 (and v1 too) does not seem to be capable of Self oscillation at all, at least when the oscillators are switched off. If you do that at maximum Resonance the sound simply stays quiet, opposing to most real analogs and most other plugins with zero delay feedback filters.

I admit that this is a bit disappointing. Anyway as Element inlcudes dedicated Sine waveforms certain sounds done with self oscillation should be possible to be done with that dedicated Sine, especially a Sine based Lead sound.

[ENV1]

Im no expert so cant judge the filter based on these samples which dont demonstrate alot to my ears

Well its no problem to provide other clips. On the contrary, in a way i was even expecting people to ask for more, but then again this is KVR, so on the other hand im not really surprised at the way this is going either.

Anyway, im not ready to write it off as a failure yet, so for those who are actually interested in participating (thank you) heres a clip featuring extreme audio-rate modulation of the filter-frequency. The filter itself is set up in the exact same way that it was in the previous clips, only this time it is being modulated by an LFO (which can go HF), and the speed of the LFO is modulated by the decay stage (linear) of an envelope. It starts slow and gets more wild as it progresses. The clip was reduced from over 200MB to 1 minute 21 seconds 30MB to keep the filesize down, but its no problem to provide more.

Download

[fluffy_little_something]

So, why would one even waste the filter just in order to produce a sine wave when the osc itself produces a sine wave, and that probably in a much more perfect way?

[chk071]

Well, as far as i know, self oscillation often produces no pure sine wave, but also adds harmonic. Also, you can easily create percussive sounds, when using the filter envelope, rather than setting up a mod envelope to modulate the sine waves pitch, which isn't even possible on more simple synths. Another thing is that you're easily able to add noise, or one of the osc's, to make it more interesting. It's also nice to have that level of resonance added to the osc sound for some sounds.

[Ingonator]

Well, as far as i know, self oscillation often produces no pure sine wave, but also adds harmonic. Also, you can easily create percussive sounds, when using the filter envelope, rather than setting up a mod envelope to modulate the sine waves pitch, which isn't even possible on more simple synths. Another thing is that you're easily able to add noise, or one of the osc's, to make it more interesting. It's also nice to have that level of resonance added to the osc sound for some sounds.

I just checked that with Diva, in combination with a spectrum analyzer. While the Minimoog filter produces almost a pure Sine with very small peaks for 2 or 3 other harmonics the MS-20 filter seems to produce some additional harmonics that you could indeed hear.
The Uhbie filter does not seem to self socillate at all. Same seems to be also true for the Arturia SEM plugin and based on what i found also with the analog SEM module. Maybe that'S also because that filter is state variable (you could morph between LPF, Notch/BPF and HPF).

The Sine i get from my Pulse 2 and Korg DW-8000 hardware also seems to sound quite "pure".

As mentioned in my previous posts certain other plugins without zero delay feedback filters starting at a certaion Cutoff produce a certain noise that could be also mettallic/ringing or simply ear piercing which is not be normal for proper self oscillation.

[fluffy_little_something]

Both Noizemaker and Sylenth1 self-oscillate without oscillator (even though in Sylenth1 one has to leave the osc turned on while reducing its volume to zero).