Synths with the snappiest envelopes

[Gonga]

that sound

What sound ?
At one point i thought the "snappy" word was defined here, but then another definition came, then came some ridiculous claims that only Diva can make it...

I want to >>>hear<<< it.
I want to load it in my DAW and >>>look<<< at the waveform.

I have Diva demo installed and i know the shape of her as... eerrrmm... ADSR.
And there is nothing special about that shape.

It appears you're referring to me, and just to be clear, I do not think only DIVA can do this. I posted multiple sound examples, and multiple patches for people to analyze. What I have gotten from this is "but I don't like it."

When I said "just a tad of sustain" I meant that's all it is. A,D, and R are all the way down to zero. And sustain is barely registered. "A tad of sustain" describes the envelope accurately. This is exactly how this sound is created with a mini and many other analogs, and if you do this with many if not most VAs, you do NOT get a dramatic loud blast of sound. You get nothing much. If I did this sound with my Moog or my Roland, you wouldn't like it, but ti would still be a sound that most VAs cannot make in my experience (I own around 100).

Maybe the shape is normal, but the sound is not. This lends credence to Taika-Kim's post.

Perhaps a handful of quality synths such as U'He, Xils, etc. can do it, but most can't do it to that extreme. It has to be quantified for this discussion to have merit. If you alter that sound to add some decay and more sustain, you get what I would consider a powerful dynamic sound that stands out from the crowd. The dynamics of the synth are superior. When you squish it all into that millisecond it sounds clicky, yes, and when you stretch it out a bit it sounds equally powerful, just not as dramatic.

Again, this discussion is a lot of meaningless semantics. If we could analyze multiple variables and compare that to the sound, described factually (observationally unambiguous) and precisely, you might eventually understand what synths are capable of what sounds. Otherwise, we should at least stick to scientific terms that have a factual basis, such as dynamic (an envelope that has a particular dynamic range that modulates over a particular short period).

So, since I am, surprisingly to me, the only Hammer/Duke fan who appreciates that particular dynamic definition of "snappy" if you will, there's apparently no reason for me to be here. Enjoy your "snappy" synths folks.

[Gonga]

When you say no soft synth except Diva can do that sound, what are the envelope settings to try? Just a tad of sustain is not enough information...

I didn't say that...I said I haven't yet heard another that can, though Zebra comes close. I've provided the audio sample and the patch. Put all the ADSR sliders to zero, then slide the sustain up just a tad. This is how they all did it in the 70s.

It would be great if people could post sound samples that would actually play, or could be downloaded without spyware, etc. I haven't been able to hear more than one or two.

I'm sorry if my posts aren't very good...I only have time to check these threads at night, when I am in a lot of pain and my mind isn't functioning well.

[Taika-Kim]

I can make a recording and share the presets, but i will be away for at least a week now.

I made an one-oscillator saw bass with lowpass on each synth, so I am talking about this one sound only of course here for a very specific use, that is, very fast 16tbs basslines...

About amplitude: changing the harmonics changes the perception of bass loudness more than just making the fundamental louder. So it matters how the decay sweeps through them. I believe this is why the Lately Bass preset on a DX100 sounds so good in a mix, it has a good amount of mids too in the sound.
And this is why a more linear decay might sound less appealing, since the octaves go logarithmically,and in a quick sweep the filter stays longer quite high in the harmonics.

[Mutant]

When I said "just a tad of sustain" I meant that's all it is. A,D, and R are all the way down to zero. And sustain is barely registered. "A tad of sustain" describes the envelope accurately. This is exactly how this sound is created with a mini and many other analogs, and if you do this with many if not most VAs, you do NOT get a dramatic loud blast of sound. You get nothing much. If I did this sound with my Moog or my Roland, you wouldn't like it, but ti would still be a sound that most VAs cannot make in my experience (I own around 100).

Copied your patch on Elektrostudio Model Mini almost perfectly.
That soft synth has (buggy) exponential envelopes which if set to long attack time look like this:


While Divas envelopes are almost completely linear:


(Images taken from my old thread about exponential attack slope shapes)

And the sound is so simple i think everyone with at least 1 day experience with synthesizers can program it in few seconds.

Maybe the shape is normal, but the sound is not.

This is like saying "2 = 3".
If the envelope shape is normal, the sound it will produce will be exactly that - normal.

So, since I am, surprisingly to me, the only Hammer/Duke fan who appreciates that particular dynamic definition of "snappy" if you will, there's apparently no reason for me to be here.

No. I liked the sounds you posted, i just call them percussive (like on some electronic organs), not snappy.

[Mutant]

Put all the ADSR sliders to zero, then slide the sustain up just a tad. This is how they all did it in the 70s

If you set A and D to zero on a VSTi, you will have it WAY faster than what is possible on an analog - this will result in smaller click.
Set it to some really small nonzero value instead.

Here are some numbers:
http://forum.moogmusic.com/viewtopic.php?t=4622
Notice the OP in that thread used the magic word "snappier" when talking about fast attack.
"I set up my Minimoog and performed the same test. Typical attacks lasted about 30 samples (625µS)"
While it is possible to set it to 400µS on one of my favorite VSTis.

[Mutant]

http://blog.cakewalk.com/punch-with-synths/
Also a good read.

And just remembered that the excellent freebie Oatmeal from Fuzzpilz, has AHDBDSR envelopes where the H can emulate that short ~20 miliseconds "punch".

[fluffy_little_something]

So it is not about the sustain control of the normal ADSR envelope, but about the Hold parameter on certain plugins, right? I remember my old SuperWave P80 had AHDSR envelopes, but I never used the H phase.

I have never played a Moog, so I don't know why setting sustain to anything other than zero (and ADR to zero) would not lead to a permanent sound, but that short burst.

The filter envelope and amount might also play a role in all that.

[Mutant]

I have never played a Moog, so I don't know why setting sustain to anything other than zero (and ADR to zero) would not lead to a permanent sound, but that short burst.

If you mean what i think you mean, i think there is also release time set in the example songs posted here earier, so the burst time is controlled by note on time and then it goes into release stage.

[Gonga]

Maybe the shape is normal, but the sound is not.

This is like saying "2 = 3".
If the envelope shape is normal, the sound it will produce will be exactly that - normal.

Ambiguous words lead to semantic arguments. It was someone else who said "normal" not me. I simply don't think DIVA's sound is average. In any case, as a scientist, I use the word normal literally, which is to say it means "average" to me. Now if DIVA's amplitude envelope are average, then fine, I have no idea. But the sound the synth produces is not. Apparently, you think otherwise. But I would question whether a normal envelope always "produces" a normal sound. Perhaps DIVA's sound involves other components as well as the "normal" envelope. In any case, I still think it's sound is not normal.

Regarding the rest of the points made by you and others - they are very interesting, thank you. I didn't realize the difference in real attack time between digital and analog. Is the difference significantly noticeable to the ear though? Also, the points about overtones are very interesting in deed.

The sustain setting does provide a sustaining note, subsequent to the dynamic burst, by the way.

And yes, my patch uses the Roland ADSR instead of the Moog ASR or whatever it is. So I think it does have a bit of release. However, I always found (with the old analogs) that to get a lead-guitar type base sound to work with (distortion, feedback, other effects, etc.) leaving the release at zero was also often desireable - it is like pick noise. It helps frame the notes - it gives them definition. I know it sounds weird, but people used to say my synth leads sounded like Zappa or Hendrix. That of course was being very kind! I mean, I was able to create some pretty expressive sounds with these settings, and that was before digital. I do think the attack affects the harmonics, especially when you add distortion, etc.

[Synthetic Wav]

how fast the attack and release can be set without clicking could also be a factor of snap and punch

[Taika-Kim]

So, I wasted the whole evening creating a shootout.

Audio is 320kbps Vorbis, so very close to lossless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3abYk-Sw ... e=youtu.be

Harmor envelopes win hands down. Noisemaker has really good clean sound with no extras, Sylenth1 sounds strong too. In the mix hardware wins IMO, even the SID chip with the very indistinct envelope and dirty filter and leaking oscillators is one of the very best with a very distinct attack portion of the sound

It's very hard to balance both the cutoff open frequency, curve, decay length and all, so some synths have a sharper sound than others, also the decay changes, because often the problem is that with a longer decay the curve is too linear, emphasizing high frequencies too much.

I tested these ones, matching the sounds general vibe by ear, trying to keep the levels similar. One difference is, that some synths create a very unsymmetrical saw wave, whereas some others make a stronger one... Anyway hmm huge differences here with such a fast BPM. I love the sound of the U-he synths, for for this type of sounds they are not the best I think, somehow the attack portion is often either a bit too clicky, or then kind of muddy. The new Hive is optimised more for this types of sounds, and it performed OK.

Also it has to be remembered, that here we are first listening to pure mono sound with only some sidechain compression from the kick, and in the mixdown all have the exactly same spatial, EQ & reverb settings. So in practice all of these sounds would have to be finetuned a lot... But I think you do hear the general flavour of the synth here. I had Omnisphere too, but it decided to make me redo the authorization, and didn´t let met save the preset I was working on first, so I just forgot it, it is pretty bad for this type of sound anyway with the plastic filters and envelopes more suitabe for slower sounds.

Camel Audio Alchemy
Studio Electronics 4075
U-He Diva
Synapse Audio Dune
Image Line Harmor
D16 Group Lush 101
Stillwell Audio Olga
Roland SH2 VST
SammichSID with mono output of one 8580SID
Lennar Digital Sylenth1
Togu Audioline Noisemaker
Togu Audioline Bassline 101
U-He Ace
U-He Bazille beta
U-He Zebra 2
U-He Hive
U-He Tyrrell N6
Steinberg VB1