Let me just say one other thing, I think those that try to model analog sound fail to listen objectively and realize that there are desirable and undesirable aspects to the sound they may be trying to recreate, because the mentality is that the analog sound is "perfect" and fail to separate the good and the bad. The mentality is that "it MUST sound and behave exactly." I think that's a black hole of time and effort.
I'm very interested in creating my own VST synth to prove all the concepts I'm trying to explain. Thanks for reading!
Antialiasing by limiting rate of change (cont. of "perfect" synthesis)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
The idea you could use this to even mimic a subtractive doesn't make much sense.
No, it doesn't sound anything like a filter. It sounds sort of like sync... but what it really sounds like is a wavelet being inserted at various positions.
Yes! Build a synthesizer using this method, but it isn't new, it isn't special and it won't change the world.
It might be extremely fun though.
No, it doesn't sound anything like a filter. It sounds sort of like sync... but what it really sounds like is a wavelet being inserted at various positions.
Yes! Build a synthesizer using this method, but it isn't new, it isn't special and it won't change the world.
It might be extremely fun though.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
Have you ever abused the analog filters in my closet? They sound like sync. But that's not even the point. Most of the time the sound I desire is one that an abused analog filter can create. I like "syncy" sounds. It got to the point where I was using analog oscillators to recreate abused-analog-filter sounds because the oscillators alone did it better. I was using analog to simulate analog!aciddose wrote:It sounds sort of like sync...
What I'm presenting may not be new, but it definitely hasn't been fully realized into a commercial product. The individual elements, sure, nothing new, but those elements together? I don't think the elements I want to bring together has even been brought together.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Actually they are sync. They're creating a pulse wave or other very saturated oscillation.
When you input another signal, this "pushes" against the oscillation to line it up, thereby producing "soft sync".
Maybe they haven't been brought together, but this isn't a complete synth.
Yes wavelet based synthesizers already do exist.
When you input another signal, this "pushes" against the oscillation to line it up, thereby producing "soft sync".
Maybe they haven't been brought together, but this isn't a complete synth.
Yes wavelet based synthesizers already do exist.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
aciddose wrote:...but this isn't a complete synth.
aciddose wrote:Yes wavelet based synthesizers already do exist.
My idea goes beyond wavelets... anyway, this thread has served it's purpose, I did learn a few things, that was the goal, as well as to discuss the things floating around in my head so I could solidify them a little more. Thanks aciddose!
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- KVRAF
- 7402 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
It sounds alright but seems like something most semi-modular synth could do, given the right control scheme. I would find a synth like that intriguing if it was easy to use, musically.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
Yeah you could probably recreate my demo in a modular. I made it with Microtonic because it just happened to have some specific features that make it kinda possible. But it will only get you so far. I don't think there's a synth that will allow you to perfectly keep things in phase enough to make this work with many waveshapes. Even if it could do that, you have the problem of not being able to code the waveshaping algorithms so that it acts like a lowpass/bandpass/highpass arbitrarily adding sinusoidal ripples correctly wherever needed. I'd like to go deeper into exploring the possibility of modelling filters this way. I'm guessing someone somewhere has tried this already? It'd kinda be like doing an inertia equation where the higher the discontinuity, the larger the ripple. Jupiter8 had a similar idea with his inertia/gravity thing.
Last edited by Architeuthis on Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
The funny thing is that is exactly how we already implement filters on subtractives...
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Identical I suspect... I'm unaware of any property of the inertia of a mass that affects its velocity other than direct input of force... Other than warping space-time of course.
Of course we model this warping of space-time (aka, gravity) as a direct input of force anyway...
Of course we model this warping of space-time (aka, gravity) as a direct input of force anyway...
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
What I'm talking about is designing an oscillator/filter algorithm that has zero delay because it calculates the next sample based not on "the input" (because there is no input) but based on the state of all parameters of the synth.aciddose wrote:The funny thing is that is exactly how we already implement filters on subtractives...
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
aciddose wrote:The funny thing is that is exactly how we already implement filters on subtractives...
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3417 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ
ok aciddose, just keep in mind clearly I am not satisfied with digital synths, and I have ideas that will allow me to do something about it. (Edit: I've explored these ideas with analog stuff, Jesusonic, and various VSTs). I don't know much about DSP and that's why I am unable to articulate myself clearly. I guess I'll stick to the Instruments forum, you DSP guys are too smart for me.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Your idea makes sense, although you haven't really explained it in any technical detail. From my point of view it is a wavelet method where you change the wavelet (by distortion, envelopes, etc) and the position/frequency/phase you insert it with.
You can definitely algorithmically limit the range of parameters to avoid much aliasing with this method, although once you start to use non-linear transformations of the wavelet you'll find you need very specific transforms that do not introduce more that a certain number of harmonics to avoid aliasing completely... You might also find those waveshapers, well, "suck". At least if you're expecting a harsh diode clamp or similar.
You should build a synth in something like synthedit or reaktor or whatever other tool suits you to demonstrate your ideas. Then if you need help you can get someone like myself to look at it and implement the actual DSP for you.
I just don't think you should think of it in terms of anything new, unique, alias-free or perfect. It isn't a huge breakthrough or solution to a problem, it's just another way to do things.
They sometimes call these sort of methods "granular synthesis" in some cases when the wavelets are actually sections of a sample with envelope applied.
So you should find that these ideas have definitely been known and experimented with for a long period of time. Maybe you can do it all better than anyone else, but you'll never know until you assemble that synthesizer and make it available for people to try.
You can definitely algorithmically limit the range of parameters to avoid much aliasing with this method, although once you start to use non-linear transformations of the wavelet you'll find you need very specific transforms that do not introduce more that a certain number of harmonics to avoid aliasing completely... You might also find those waveshapers, well, "suck". At least if you're expecting a harsh diode clamp or similar.
You should build a synth in something like synthedit or reaktor or whatever other tool suits you to demonstrate your ideas. Then if you need help you can get someone like myself to look at it and implement the actual DSP for you.
I just don't think you should think of it in terms of anything new, unique, alias-free or perfect. It isn't a huge breakthrough or solution to a problem, it's just another way to do things.
They sometimes call these sort of methods "granular synthesis" in some cases when the wavelets are actually sections of a sample with envelope applied.
So you should find that these ideas have definitely been known and experimented with for a long period of time. Maybe you can do it all better than anyone else, but you'll never know until you assemble that synthesizer and make it available for people to try.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 7402 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
Another thing is that complexity (of the waveform) isn't free, it might be cheaper for simpler equations, which do generate more complex spectra, but eventually cost the same as other analytical methods.
