KVR Audio

zenvoxpop · Post by **zenvoxpop** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:56 pm

kj.metissage wrote:To be honest I preferred when he was doing plugins on his own, with Patrice designing the GUI.

as much as I respect Fabien and TokyoDawn, I have to agree with you.

Obsolete236871 · Post by **Obsolete236871** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:00 pm

zenvoxpop wrote:
kj.metissage wrote:To be honest I preferred when he was doing plugins on his own, with Patrice designing the GUI.
as much as I respect Fabien and TokyoDawn, I have to agree with you.

There is obviously a misunderstanding.

I also liked the GUIs by Patrick very much - they are great. But the idea of collaborating with Tokyo Dawn /VladG is not a question of GUI, but about all of these guys bringing their specific sophisticated knowledge of coding, building a cross-platform framework (so that they can built 32/64 bit plugins, VST/AU/AAX, WIN/MAC etcetera), and sound processing to the table and creating great plugins like Slick EQ in the process. I would have no problem with these plugins having a GUI designed by Patrick, if this was doable. So, there is no conflict here from what I can see.

75ips · Post by **75ips** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:50 pm

I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.

zenvoxpop · Post by **zenvoxpop** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:46 pm

75ips wrote:I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.

well that's a bit harsh and probably not true.

I honestly appreciate their products equally, top notch stuff. Don't be negative.
The only thing that changed was that before the colaboration we had 3 separate entities, each with its own vision and philosophy, that looked and sounded nothing alike.

Now, we have technically speaking very solid projects (kotelnikov, slick, slickGE, upcoming mixing comp), but I dunno... It just doesn't exite and inspire me as their earlier stuff.
Honestly, I still prefer using BootEq+BaxterEQ rather than slickEQ and rather use Density+Molot+Limiter6 instead of Kotelnikov.I can't really define why...

Xenakios · Post by **Xenakios** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:53 pm

75ips wrote: they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.

Bootsie isn't even near any maximum potential anyway, as long as he is using Synthmaker...That will always be a severely limiting factor if he insists on using it and not learning proper development.

mike the mental · Post by **mike the mental** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:27 am

75ips wrote:I think the point here is that Tokyo Dawn / vladg just aren't on the same level as Bootsie, and that they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.

to much speculation and disrespect in this post for my taste

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:17 am

Xenakios wrote:
75ips wrote: they're distracting him from achieving his max potential.
Bootsie isn't even near any maximum potential anyway, as long as he is using Synthmaker...That will always be a severely limiting factor if he insists on using it and not learning proper development.

Sorry but this just isn't true.

Bootsie (Herbert) uses SynthMaker to easier impalement a GUI. All of his code up until his last release were always custom coded, no built in SM modules. Did did however mention several times, if a GUI implementation wouldn't eat so much time and cost a sh*tload of effort, then he'd gone full native already. Actually - FlowStone would (in theory) offer x64 - though I've yet to see other devs going x64 with THEIR SM creations (looking at G-Sonique with their Pultronic).

It did turn a bit silent around Herbert, at least in public. Which is more than fine, because he created a lot of plugins in recent years that still work up until today (sans the missing x64 version, which can be bridged to that), and his maintenance work was always top notch. So I do count that as cutting him some slack and giving him some spare time for both of his hobbies (photography and plugin development), additional to his regular dayjob to keep afloat.

I mean - he's at least showing some life-signs on his homepage compared to a couple of other developers I followed and supported in recent years.

Xenakios · Post by **Xenakios** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:01 pm

Compyfox wrote: All of his code up until his last release were always custom coded, no built in SM modules.

Is there any proof of that?

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:04 pm

He said it several times, on KVR even. So take a dive into bootsie's backlog.

Xenakios · Post by **Xenakios** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:26 pm

Compyfox wrote:He said it several times, on KVR even. So take a dive into bootsie's backlog.

"He said"? OK, that's no proof then. And in any case, even if he has dabbled in writing some code, that isn't the "proper development" thing I mentioned earlier.

Has he ever produced even a simple compiled C(++) plugin? (Except for the later collaborations he has now done.) You know, those can also be done without a custom GUI. Should have been a simple matter for him to reproduce some of his Synthmaker plugins which allegedly have "custom code" in them as a proof of concept GUIless VST...

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:42 pm

All Synthmaker plugin use Synthmaker modules, anybody who says any different either hadn't used Synthmaker or is lying

Nobody can make a Synthmaker plugin and use it for only UI.

I doubt very much he ever claimed as such.

Then again, it is the stupidest silly nonsense of an argument towards SM/SE anyway "don't use native modules" really ? Do these people always eat with their fingers too because somebody else invented the spoon ?
When something is done right it doesn't need reinventing.

The only relavant argument against these packages is the poor out of date exporting (and in Synthmakers case the fact the developers dont want anything else to do with VST haha)

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:45 pm

Xenakios wrote:"He said"? OK, that's no proof then. And in any case, even if he has dabbled in writing some code, that isn't the "proper development" thing I mentioned earlier.

*sigh* One of those... "pix or it didn't happen" moments it seems.

A couple of starting points - and yes, I actually blew 45 minutes on digging through the backlogs on KVR, his own blog and my personal mails with Herbert first.

A couple of examples:
http://rekkerd.org/bootsy-releases-rescue-vst/ (mentions "crucial parts written in assembler")
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/20 ... /epicverb/ (same on the official blog)

The manual of BootEQ MkII on page 9 also mentions:
SSE and Assembler optimized sound engine

Something he omitted in later manual releases - because the info was no more relevant.

Then one random post on the SynthMaker boards by bootsie/Herbert:
http://www.synthmaker.co.uk/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=9290

And another random thread on KVR audio from 2011, that mentions (again) that VoS plugins are written in ASM, and only the GUI (shell) is SM:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6&t=313231

Xenakios wrote:Has he ever produced even a simple compiled C(++) plugin?

He is using Assembler.

Xenakios wrote:(Except for the later collaborations he has now done.) You know, those can also be done without a custom GUI. Should have been a simple matter for him to reproduce some of his Synthmaker plugins which allegedly have "custom code" in them as a proof of concept GUIless VST...

Oh hey... he can't "properly code" if he's insisting on using SynthMaker for easier GUI implementation, and not C++ to create a "GUI-less plugin as proof of concept". This is the very reason why he stopped answering on major music related boards.

Know a bit of German? If so:
http://recording.de/Community/Forum/Rec ... ma_16.html

One question though - why was it so hard to do the research yourself? Then again, it's simpler to bark up he tree of a respected plugin programmer - and in the same breath saying that he's deceiving us with sticking to SynthMaker/FlowStone.

bungle wrote:The only relavant argument against these packages is the poor out of date exporting (and in Synthmakers case the fact the developers dont want anything else to do with VST haha)

You mean VST3 rather... But I do get your point.

Xenakios · Post by **Xenakios** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:06 pm

Compyfox wrote: He is using Assembler.

That doesn't impress me one bit. Using assembler is one of the best ways to ensure one's code can never be ported cleanly and easily to other systems than it was originally written for. A sign of a developer who doesn't have any plan for what he is doing.

How come did the "all custom code, no Synthmaker modules" now turn into "crucial parts written in SSE/Assembler"...? What are those "crucial parts"? Is it just about CPU efficiency? Did Bootsie write any code in assembler that couldn't have been achieved with the Synthmaker built-in modules, only running slower?

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:11 pm

Not sure if serious...

We have a classical situation of "disbelieve" and "arrogance" that something doesn't go the users' way. Giving up here.

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:54 pm

In a plugin the size of Bootsies (and yes i am a Synthmaker expert, alpha tester, beta tester on the original and the now discontinued second genwration) Assembly offers little in the way of speed increases or any other advantags unless one knows assembly better than they know SM itself, this is no slight on Bootsie, but claiming that anything is of better quality/value because it has been designed one way or another in SM is pure nonsense.

In fact the reality is that using the native GUI controls (as he did) was one of the most flawed ways of working for efficiency, the native GUI controls design where all terribly out of date and CPU could be saved much easier by rebuilding those from scratch (something a lot of us did)

But again this is all nonsense talk anyway, Bootsie either does not want or is capable of coding his own plugins or he would/will do so, this has nothing to do with SM or german but it is a choice by Bootsie

Also may i point out here that making snypey remarks about a developer as talented as Xenakios is again, pure nonsense.

Is Bootsie not makinng plugins anymore?