KVR Audio

Melodyshine · Post by **Melodyshine** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:19 am

I can't believe that some piano-library companies keep secret that they haven't sampled all 88 keys. I took that for granted when they talk about 10 or 13 velocity layers!
The Giant by Galaxy Instruments has 82 sampled keys at most (the highest notes haven't been sampled chromatically).
Native Instrument's also didn't sample all 88 keys for the New York Concert Grand in contrast to Alicia's Keys.
But it's nearly deception when a company like Sampletekk says that the product "Sampletekk Black" has up to 14 velocity layers and that it might be their best grand piano library for 99$, but then keeping secret that only approximately 45 keys have been sampled... That's one of the reasons why I've sold Sampletekk Black and why I won't buy anything from Sampletekk again.

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:47 am

Interesting. I still love the Sampletekk Black and always will, but I didn't realize it was sampled basically every other note.
I noted in the pianos I've created or Kontakted that the Salamander at every minor third sampled but with 16 velocity layers was tremendously smooth but a bit synthy and a touch unreal, while the City and Iowa sampled with every single key (well the Iowa is missing about 10 total) in 4 or 3 velocity layers respectively aren't anywhere near as smooth but seem much 'realer' and warmer to me. I wonder if this is related to being fully sampled or just my ear hearing the Yamaha (Salamander) versus the Baldwin and the Steinway.

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:40 am

pianoteq + blüthner add on is better anyway. i dropped all my sample-based piano libraries after i bought it.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:42 am

what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys

hueynym · Post by **hueynym** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:00 am

mysticvibes wrote:what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys

"The only good sample is no sample"

strayboom · Post by **strayboom** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:12 am

does it really matter how many keys have been sampled IF the overall sounding and quality is good enough?

to be honest, i don't like huge sound libraries. they take more cpu power and memory than it's reasonable. even if they are DFD.
so basically, i would care about sound quality and not sound quantity and also would consider if that spectacular sound fits into my music or not. i might need a different piano sound for pop music and different for jazz, etc, etc

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:19 am

Also if the piano was in perfect tune to begin with wouldn't the sampled key sound the same as the next half step key when its semi tone is increased by one?

Burillo · Post by **Burillo** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:20 am

i would guess the problem is that if you have fewer samples, you'd have more chance of having subtle phasing issues due to different samples being phase-correlated. plus there's always the machine-gun effect.

murnau · Post by **murnau** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:23 am

murnau wrote:pianoteq + blüthner add on is better anyway. i dropped all my sample-based piano libraries after i bought it.

mysticvibes wrote:what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys

strayboom · Post by **strayboom** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:24 am

multiple samples of the same key (aka. round robin) is mandatory

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:47 pm

mysticvibes wrote:Also if the piano was in perfect tune to begin with wouldn't the sampled key sound the same as the next half step key when its semi tone is increased by one?

Not so much. Pianos are not tuned as though 12 equal to the octave is 'perfection' (pianos need piano tuners, which is a whole art in itself, it isn't that reducable); also you're leaving out the physicality and particularity of resonance/overtones by this assumption...

Now a lot of this is not crucial say in the last seven keys or something. Cheaping out in the bass would be the worst.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:56 pm

I was about to post about comparing the audio spectrum of say c with b increased a semi tone and have a look at there fundamental frequencies and harmonics but for some reason didn't get around to it. I know ratios are used in determining equal temperment scale... so these aren't exact ratios then? Would by any chance even velocity affect the harmonics as well?

Melodyshine · Post by **Melodyshine** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:08 pm

Statement from Galaxy Instruments:

we've sampled The Giant chromatically, but unfortunately not all keys made it to the final stage of the instrument due to tuning and intonation. If we would have used these keys as well, the instrument would have been unbalanced.

Brother Charles · Post by **Brother Charles** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:40 pm

Hmmm . . . 'tis true, samples can be a "pain in the noodle" for sure. I bought SampleTekk's "The Grand" about a year and a half ago, and I was wondering why it only weighed in at around 1 GB. I do like the overall sound of "Black", but to be honest, I think the original SampleTekk "Black Grand" was better. While it didn't enlist the fancy Kontakt scripting, the raw, lesser-processed sound is really good. The same holds true for the other notable SampleTekk piano sample libraries: The White, TBO, Seven Cs, and etcetera.

** EDIT **

I just installed the most recent update for "ST Black" (ver. 1.2) - it's definitely much, much better. "The Black" is a very nice sample library, and it isn't too large.

I'm not sure why 4 Front's "True Pianos" doesn't get a lot more attention, because it is an absolutely enthralling product. Excellent sound, miniscule memory footprint, low CPU consumption, and affordable. I wrote a full review of it some time ago. The link is here, if you're interested.

4Front Technologies’ True Pianos Review – TRUE PIANO Modelling!

I also keep going back to one of my all-time favorites; ToonTrack EZkeys Grand. Small size, HUGE sound.
ToonTrack EZkeys Essential Pianos Review – The Song Writer’s Piano Friends

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:20 am

mysticvibes wrote:I was about to post about comparing the audio spectrum of say c with b increased a semi tone and have a look at there fundamental frequencies and harmonics but for some reason didn't get around to it. I know ratios are used in determining equal temperment scale... so these aren't exact ratios then? Would by any chance even velocity affect the harmonics as well?

No, 12 tone ET per se produces irrational intervals, in fact (12 equidistant intervals arrived at through 12th root of two).

But piano tuning weighs a lot of things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning#Theory

Also see 'stretch tuning'.

The tuning described by the above beating plan provides a good approximation of equal temperament across the range of the temperament octave. If extended further, however, the actual tuning of the instrument becomes increasingly inaccurate because of inharmonicity, which causes harmonics to run slightly sharp, as increasingly higher tones in the harmonic series are reached. This problem is mitigated by "stretching" the octaves as one tunes above (and to an extent below) the temperament region. When octaves are stretched, they are tuned, not to the lowest coincidental overtone (second partial) of the note below, but to a higher one (often the 4th partial). This widens all intervals equally, thereby maintaining intervallic and tonal consistency.

Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?