Is Micing a real Bass Cab worth it?

[LunarKitten]

Hello,

I have done some tests, and I prefer the sound of micing a real guitar cab to IRs and cab simulations. Now I am contemplating micing bass cabs as well. I don't own any bass cabs at this point, and I have no experience micing bass cabs.

I would among other things drive the cabs with a 100 watt tube head. There are three things I am concerned about:

1. Will I have issues, because my room is not acoustically treated to deal with very low frequencies at high amplitudes?

2. How much do I need to be concerned about the vibrations causing things to fall over? (Will I physically melt in front of a loud bass cab in a smallish room?)

3. How much (in your opinion) is a real miced contributing to a rock production compared to other option like IRs/simulations or direct signals?

Extra question. Can The amplitude of an bass cab possibly damage a microphone?

EDIT: I meant to post this in the guitar section. sry

[zerocrossing]

I’ll come right out and say that I think that unless you have a really good treated room and mics, you’re going to get a better quality of sound using IRs, straight across the board, guitar and bass. Ownhammer and Yorke seem to be the best to my ears. I no longer even bother with guitar amps at all. A good Tonex capture or Amplitube emulation beats a tube amp head into a load box, IMO.

I’m talking about the end results, not the experience of playing, which of course is different.

[LunarKitten]

I’ll come right out and say that I think that unless you have a really good treated room and mics, you’re going to get a better quality of sound using IRs, straight across the board, guitar and bass. Ownhammer and Yorke seem to be the best to my ears. I no longer even bother with guitar amps at all. A good Tonex capture or Amplitube emulation beats a tube amp head into a load box, IMO.

I see the appeal in these solutions, but in my scenario I must say that a real cab (at least when it comes to guitar cabs) is still better to my ears.

The amp simulations I have played don't feel anything like my amps, but that is a different subject.

To be clear, I believe that you can make excellent music, that I'd like the sound of, with these alternatives. My personal preference, however, are real cabs (for guitars at least).

[zerocrossing]

I’ll come right out and say that I think that unless you have a really good treated room and mics, you’re going to get a better quality of sound using IRs, straight across the board, guitar and bass. Ownhammer and Yorke seem to be the best to my ears. I no longer even bother with guitar amps at all. A good Tonex capture or Amplitube emulation beats a tube amp head into a load box, IMO.

I see the appeal in these solutions, but in my scenario I must say that a real cab (at least when it comes to guitar cabs) is still better to my ears.

The amp simulations I have played don't feel anything like my amps, but that is a different subject.

To be clear, I believe that you can make excellent music, that I'd like the sound of, with these alternatives. My personal preference, however, are real cabs (for guitars at least).

Then you should follow your dreams.

[Septimon]

1.) probably yes. (The closer to the speaker you put the mic the less problems you’ll have and you need a mic with the right characteristics )
2.) no
3.) not much unless you have a superb amp, mic and room.

Extra:
It depends on the microphone. Some types, especially ribbon mics, can be damaged by levels above the maximum spl.

For most mics though, the limitation is what the circuitry inside the mic can handle, so you'll get distortion but probably won't damage the mic. That's why many mics have a pad which allows you to capture higher spl when it's engaged.
Quoted from „tallguyfilms“ on reddit

Long Story short: just DI the bass.

[LunarKitten]

Then you should follow your dreams.

Yes, I agree. I have tried different software solutions. IR's can sound really good, but by their nature they are completely static. I have compared a cab to a similar amplitube simulation. The amplitube simulation has nice dynamics, but compared to my real cab, it sounded off, putting them side by side. The amplitube simulation sounds fine by itself, but I would encourage anyone who has the option to do an AB test with the real thing. I'd prefer a software solution, but if it doesn't sound right I'd rather go through the trouble of micing a real cab.

1.) probably yes. (The closer to the speaker you put the mic the less problems you’ll have and you need a mic with the right characteristics )

Okay thanks.

It depends on the microphone. Some types, especially ribbon mics, can be damaged by levels above the maximum spl.

For most mics though, the limitation is what the circuitry inside the mic can handle, so you'll get distortion but probably won't damage the mic. That's why many mics have a pad which allows you to capture higher spl when it's engaged.
Quoted from „tallguyfilms“ on reddit

That is good to know. Thanks. Do 100 Watt RMS amps go over 130db when not completely cranked?

Long Story short: just DI the bass.

I'm certainly going to do that. Currently I am contemplating, if I should go through the trouble of doing a AB test on micing a bass cab. Before my guitar cab AB test, the idea of micing a bass cab was nuts to me, but with how pleased I was with the results I am rethinking my position.

[Septimon]

That is good to know. Thanks. Do 100 Watt RMS amps go over 130db when not completely cranked?

in my understanding it is not possible to tell the loudness (measured in db) just from knowing the power of the amp (measured in watt). For example there are guitar amps with only 5 or even only 1 Watt that can be really loud. Speaker efficiency for example makes a difference as well.

but since 130 db relates to "A jet engine" i think you'll probably be good with your bass amp "not completely cranked"

this might be interesting:
https://avnews.co.za/how-loudness-relat ... ier-power/
https://300guitars.com/articles/amplifi ... -decibels/
https://www.lifewire.com/loudness-and-amp-power-3135081

[revvy]

OP: let us know how you get on when you get round to it!! Be great to hear audio comparisons.

I take my DI out from my preamp pedal (at the end of a few effects pedals) directly into my audio interface, my sound is great, so I’ve never bothered amping up my combo amp. Still at the messing with it stage, so no audio examples yet.

The amp itself has also got a DI out which adds an amp sim to the signal, again, to avoid having to mic up. I’ll have to give it a try.

[LunarKitten]

in my understanding it is not possible to tell the loudness (measured in db) just from knowing the power of the amp (measured in watt). For example there are guitar amps with only 5 or even only 1 Watt that can be really loud. Speaker efficiency for example makes a difference as well.

That is my understanding as well.

but since 130 db relates to "A jet engine" i think you'll probably be good with your bass amp "not completely cranked"

That makes sense, yes.

this might be interesting:
https://avnews.co.za/how-loudness-relat ... ier-power/
https://300guitars.com/articles/amplifi ... -decibels/
https://www.lifewire.com/loudness-and-amp-power-3135081

Have to look at it later. Thanks!

OP: let us know how you get on when you get round to it!! Be great to hear audio comparisons.

Thank you for your interest. Okay, if I commit to the idea and get some cabs I can make some demonstrations.

I take my DI out from my preamp pedal (at the end of a few effects pedals) directly into my audio interface, my sound is great, so I’ve never bothered amping up my combo amp.

Yes, I think it is more of a concern with guitars generally speaking.

The amp itself has also got a DI out which adds an amp sim to the signal, again, to avoid having to mic up. I’ll have to give it a try.

You mean cab sim right?

Be sure to check these videos. I'd like to here what your impression is:

Amp Balanced Outs vs a variety of mics/cabs (Click this text for the correct timestamp)

Miced Amp vs DI (Click this text for the correct timestamp)

[zerocrossing]

Then you should follow your dreams.

Yes, I agree. I have tried different software solutions. IR's can sound really good, but by their nature they are completely static. I have compared a cab to a similar amplitube simulation. The amplitube simulation has nice dynamics, but compared to my real cab, it sounded off, putting them side by side. The amplitube simulation sounds fine by itself, but I would encourage anyone who has the option to do an AB test with the real thing. I'd prefer a software solution, but if it doesn't sound right I'd rather go through the trouble of micing a real cab.

I spent 28 years mic’ing cabinets. I know how they sound. Comparing them to Amplitube is impossible, because there are far too many variables to consider. Are you in the identical room the simulation is mimicking? Same mic position? Of course not.

I won’t bother a-b test anyway, because you are describing a problem I do not have. Rather than waste time comparing things, I’d rather spend that time just dialing in a good guitar sound, which I have. There’s not a single moment when I’m using one of my amp emulations that I think, “this doesn’t sound right.” That said, not all of Amplitube’s cabs are created equal, and I will sometimes load a cabinet IR. Static? I believe such things are overstated. What’s way more important, IMO, is the push-pull interaction between a tube power amp and the speaker load, which I feel Amplitube does do a great job of mimicking. I bet if someone else created an a-b test and just did their best at getting a good sound out of each method, you could not pick out the right one in any consistent way.

That said, for bass, I almost always go for the sound of a transistor amp. My last real bass amp was a Hartke combo. Amplitube has some great transistor amp sims, and I always mix in some DI, just as I did when I was micing amps. I’m also using an old Steinberger Q bass, so I’m going for that modern 90s sound a lot. Sometimes I will go for one of the Ampeg SVTs, though. If I’m going for a different tone.

Bad sound?

https://youtu.be/YTj_LXjdZQo?feature=shared

Nothing wrong with these tones.

https://youtu.be/U7csRA8nnaM?feature=shared

But remember, Amplitube isn’t emulating an amp. It’s the sound of a recorded amp. It takes a bit of time to get used to the difference while recording a part, but well worth it, IMO. I couldn’t even mic up real amps anymore. I live in a townhouse where I’m pretty sure my neighbors also work from home. I don’t have a good dedicated room to set up amps.

So yeah, Amplitube replaced my Hartke in around 2008 and I’ve not once been unable to obtain a sound that I love from it. Why would I waste my time and money?

[zerocrossing]

I dare anyone to be able to get this blind test correct.

https://youtu.be/p2v73SMpaW4?feature=shared

[Gavincoolguy]

Fender Rumble 40 micd with a dynamic for my pedal chain, condenser for room and DI together fits my needs in an apartment. I don't feel like I have to get very loud but I try to work when my neighbors leave. you can replace the Rumble with Brainworx, Nembrini or Amplitube all seem great but I'm no bass player. I think you would have to be doing something real special with the bass to need more!

[LunarKitten]

But remember, Amplitube isn’t emulating an amp. It’s the sound of a recorded amp. It takes a bit of time to get used to the difference while recording a part, but well worth it, IMO. I couldn’t even mic up real amps anymore. I live in a townhouse where I’m pretty sure my neighbors also work from home. I don’t have a good dedicated room to set up amps.

I won't adress most of what you have written, because I am in agreement with what you're saying. I think that these solutions work great, depending on who is using them and for what material.

I have played real guitar amps with a reactive load through amplitubes cab sims. I have also played their guitar amp simulations and IMHO real amps blow their simulations away. Might be because I don't know how to set up the software right. I don't know for certain. It is certainly a matter of preference. I Haven't ever played a profieler though.

So yeah, Amplitube replaced my Hartke in around 2008 and I’ve not once been unable to obtain a sound that I love from it. Why would I waste my time and money?

I appreachiate your perspective. I think that real cabs and amps work better for me personally (for guitar), and since I can record the real thing why should I waste my time and effort not doing so if that is my preference? It is just a matter of perspective really.

Fender Rumble 40 micd with a dynamic for my pedal chain, condenser for room and DI together fits my needs in an apartment.

Sounds good.

[cryophonik]

As a lifelong bassist, former pro audio engineer and studio musician, and home studio enthusiast, my advice is to ignore every generalization about room acoustics and proper mics, and mic'ing techniques, etc. and just put a mic in your room and record it along with the DI and decide for yourself which one or, more likely, which blend of the two works best. That's the only way you're going to know if it sounds good or not (and YOU are the judge of that, not random clueless strangers on the internet). I've had my bass amps mic'ed with everything ranging from cheap ass mics in a garage to high end mics in a treated isolation room to live performances on a stage, and everything in between and the best mic'd cabinet sounds I've heard from those recordings were not always from the best/most expensive approach. Sometimes an SM57 in your crappy untreated studio blended in with your DI gives you that added edge and raw tone that keeps your bass from sounding like a sampled one.

[LunarKitten]

I dare anyone to be able to get this blind test correct.

https://youtu.be/p2v73SMpaW4?feature=shared

I wouldn't have thought of adding a compressor to the miced signal. To be fair when it goes from example A to B the mix loses dimension.

I have watched another video by this youtuber, and the compressor is in the chain just to catch the peaks.