Reason Rack as super synth or collection of synths?

[Jac459]

There was a discussion in kvr last week about people preferences between simple dedicated synths versus super synths doing it all.
I have no preference myself but it got me thinking as how I use the RRP vastly as a collection of synths and never use anymore the modular/flexible architecture of reason and it's superb combinator 2.

As the focus of reason seems to be shifting towards RRP (it is now the first definition of reason visible in their website), I wonder if they shouldn't put even more emphasis on the support of the combinator 2 by providing much more combinator presets and a way to browse only combinators.... It would really develop the super synth side of reason.
What do you think?

[hurricaneaudiolab]

I was a big-time Reason user. Also owned Logic but used Reason 90% of the time. Did all my stuff in it - messed with cables, created combis, layered/stacked, split signals, did all that tweaky shit. Also have tons of refills. It was my main DAW, and I learned a lot about this music making stuff thanks to Reason. However, as my skills grew, Reason the DAW wasn't growing with me. Started doing ALL my stuff in Logic. Haven't created a full track inside Reason in a very long time. Logic is AMAZING.

I still use it as the RRP though, and as a sound module. Have a huge collection of patches. Still use those refills. But I'm nowhere near as tweaky or experimental as I used to be. I honestly don't remember the last time I flipped the rack to do something "Reasony" with it. Right now Reason is just a collection of synths and sounds. I'm really not interested in doing all that tweaky stuff again. Instead of building a sound, I'd rather just load Dune 3 or Omnisphere and have that sound already built. The majority of REs are pretty weak. Some of the Props' own synths are pretty good. I'm always using PX7 and Pulse. Analogue Monsters and Pinknoise refills are solid.

The RRP is pretty much a preset machine for me now.

[hurricaneaudiolab]

dupe

[swilow11]

Good old Reason. After Fruity Loops, I got Reason in 2002 or so and used it solely for over 10 years before the limitation stopped inspiring me and started hindering. Went on to Cubase and basically forgot about Reason for a decade, tried a Reason+ sub last year and was totally blown away by the new content. Europa and (could be spelling it wrong) Algoritm were phenomenal. The SSL channel strip mixer was/is great. But the sub model turned me off, and while I've thought about outright buying the product, I've got many 3rd party synths/FX and no need for more. But I will say that the older limitations of the software- and talking about up to whatever version the M CLass stuff and Thor came out with, so my view is limited- seem to be null and void now. RRP could easily compete with NI or Arturia packages and could even be more diverse then those in some senses. So yeah, I'd say that Reason are really more in the massive software plugin game than standalone DAW realm. I don't really know how the Combinator 2 differs from the original, but re the latter- that was an incredible piece of software that absolutely blew Reason wide open.

Funnily, when I was subbed, still found myself going for the dear old Subtractor synth.

[imrae]

Some of my favourite features of REASON (sampling directly into instruments, groove mixer, bouncing to REX) are not available in the plugin. I don't think copying Redrum patterns to track works, either, but maybe there is some workaround?

While I find some aspects of the DAW clunky (no looping/ghost MIDI clips so you have to use pattern sequencers if you want to edit multiple playing patterns of different lengths) the automation lanes and midi note lanes are implemented pretty nicely.

There are some very interesting CV sources in the RE store, such as PSQ-1684. And I find the split/mix capabilities useful for assembling multiple instruments into a drum kit with some FX etc.

So yeah, I barely use RRP at all compared to the DAW. The instruments are good for their quick rack workflow; similar capabilities and sound are available elsewhere.

[chk071]

There was a discussion in kvr last week about people preferences between simple dedicated synths versus super synths doing it all.
I have no preference myself but it got me thinking as how I use the RRP vastly as a collection of synths and never use anymore the modular/flexible architecture of reason and it's superb combinator 2.

As the focus of reason seems to be shifting towards RRP (it is now the first definition of reason visible in their website), I wonder if they shouldn't put even more emphasis on the support of the combinator 2 by providing much more combinator presets and a way to browse only combinators.... It would really develop the super synth side of reason.
What do you think?

I never really found that the Reason devices can compete with the better VST instruments out there, so, that would be out of the question for me.

Also, it wouldn't give me any advantages. I don't really build complex modular instrument of effect chains.

TBH, in general, I think Reason has steered into a one way street it won't come out of again. The whole concept failed for me at the point where they didn't bring the internal stuff up to date, and implemented VST support. I predicted that before they implemented VST support, and, it happened that way. They should have stuck to their original concept: A self-contained "studio" type DAW, which doesn't compete with DAWs out there which are light years ahead in terms of VST implementation and DAW feature set.

[Jac459]

There was a discussion in kvr last week about people preferences between simple dedicated synths versus super synths doing it all.
I have no preference myself but it got me thinking as how I use the RRP vastly as a collection of synths and never use anymore the modular/flexible architecture of reason and it's superb combinator 2.

As the focus of reason seems to be shifting towards RRP (it is now the first definition of reason visible in their website), I wonder if they shouldn't put even more emphasis on the support of the combinator 2 by providing much more combinator presets and a way to browse only combinators.... It would really develop the super synth side of reason.
What do you think?

I never really found that the Reason devices can compete with the better VST instruments out there, so, that would be out of the question for me.

Also, it wouldn't give me any advantages. I don't really build complex modular instrument of effect chains.

TBH, in general, I think Reason has steered into a one way street it won't come out of again. The whole concept failed for me at the point where they didn't bring the internal stuff up to date, and implemented VST support. I predicted that before they implemented VST support, and, it happened that way. They should have stuck to their original concept: A self-contained "studio" type DAW, which doesn't compete with DAWs out there which are light years ahead in terms of VST implementation and DAW feature set.

Well, in fact some synths are really in the same ballpark that the best VSTs.

In physical modelling, objekt and friktion are the best soft synths available, period.

On wavetables, Europa is very very good. Below Serum certainly but not far from Current/vital.

On FM, Algorithm is good but Zero Hybrid is an absolute beast and my favourite FM synth.

On granular, grain has a mix of spectral and granular synthesis which is very very interesting.

That being said, tbh, it is difficult to say which strategy would have saved them or make them be better. Moving myself from Reason to Bitwig, I don't see how reason could catch-up as a DAW, there is really multiple generations of gap.
On the other hand, Reason Rack as a plugin works very very well. I have Falcon, Avenger, serum, diva, spire, current, synthmaster2, hive 2 and many others and yet I find myself using Reason very very often.

[chk071]

Well, in fact some synths are really in the same ballpark that the best VSTs.

In physical modelling, objekt and friktion are the best soft synths available, period.

On wavetables, Europa is very very good. Below Serum certainly but not far from Current/vital.

On FM, Algorithm is good but Zero Hybrid is an absolute beast and my favourite FM synth.

On granular, grain has a mix of spectral and granular synthesis which is very very interesting.

I can't comment on Objekt, Friktion, or Grain, but, Europa is pretty bland sounding to me. Typical old school soft synth sound (in a bad way), and, no competition to Serum either IMO. Subtractor and Thor aren't great either.

To each his own, but, in my eyes, there are VSTi's which smoke pretty much everything in Reason.

Also note that Reason Studios actually released Europa as a VSTi. Didn't seem to be a massive success, as they stopped selling it after a short while.

[Jac459]

Well, in fact some synths are really in the same ballpark that the best VSTs.

In physical modelling, objekt and friktion are the best soft synths available, period.

On wavetables, Europa is very very good. Below Serum certainly but not far from Current/vital.

On FM, Algorithm is good but Zero Hybrid is an absolute beast and my favourite FM synth.

On granular, grain has a mix of spectral and granular synthesis which is very very interesting.

I can't comment on Objekt, Friktion, or Grain, but, Europa is pretty bland sounding to me. Typical old school soft synth sound (in a bad way). Subtractor and Thor aren't great either.

To each his own, but, in my eyes, there are VSTi's which smoke pretty much everything in Reason.

Also note that Reason Studios actually released Europa as a VSTi. Didn't seem to be a massive success, as they stopped selling it after a short while.

Europa has spectral modifiers, spectral and normal filters, 3 layers , good modulation sections, it is good.
But there is a ton of good wavetable synths, serum, vital, current so I agree Europa is not differentiating.

Objekt and friktion are.

[chk071]

Well, in fact some synths are really in the same ballpark that the best VSTs.

In physical modelling, objekt and friktion are the best soft synths available, period.

On wavetables, Europa is very very good. Below Serum certainly but not far from Current/vital.

On FM, Algorithm is good but Zero Hybrid is an absolute beast and my favourite FM synth.

On granular, grain has a mix of spectral and granular synthesis which is very very interesting.

I can't comment on Objekt, Friktion, or Grain, but, Europa is pretty bland sounding to me. Typical old school soft synth sound (in a bad way). Subtractor and Thor aren't great either.

To each his own, but, in my eyes, there are VSTi's which smoke pretty much everything in Reason.

Also note that Reason Studios actually released Europa as a VSTi. Didn't seem to be a massive success, as they stopped selling it after a short while.

Europa has spectral modifiers, spectral and normal filters, 3 layers , good modulation sections, it is good.

If features are the measurement for "good" maybe.

For me, everything stands and falls with the sound.

I don't want to trash Reason, just want to point where it falls short in my eyes.

[Funky40]

Reason as a plugin / "a Synth", seems very interesting to me.

I´m quite fresh at Reason. Just bought recently several NoiseEngeneering plugins as a Reason addon. Cause: at Reason you get sales, as a VST there were nonne ! (not at that time at least)
I use reason only as a plugin (just very fresh to it) and won´t ever use it anything other.

I stumbled over a CV device addon within Reason, for $10, which allows you to create morph controls and more.
So, i could.....still not donne.....create morph controls inside RRP, and have it saved within the preset. Such things are very useful. I´d not underestimate RRP
anyway not for its analog modelling synths ( thats why i bought it, finally / well could upgrade from an very old one for a reasonable price)

https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... generator/

[Yorrrrrr]

Well, in fact some synths are really in the same ballpark that the best VSTs.

In physical modelling, objekt and friktion are the best soft synths available, period.

On wavetables, Europa is very very good. Below Serum certainly but not far from Current/vital.

On FM, Algorithm is good but Zero Hybrid is an absolute beast and my favourite FM synth.

On granular, grain has a mix of spectral and granular synthesis which is very very interesting.

I can't comment on Objekt, Friktion, or Grain, but, Europa is pretty bland sounding to me. Typical old school soft synth sound (in a bad way). Subtractor and Thor aren't great either.

To each his own, but, in my eyes, there are VSTi's which smoke pretty much everything in Reason.

Also note that Reason Studios actually released Europa as a VSTi. Didn't seem to be a massive success, as they stopped selling it after a short while.

Europa has spectral modifiers, spectral and normal filters, 3 layers , good modulation sections, it is good.

If features are the measurement for "good" maybe.

For me, everything stands and falls with the sound.

I don't want to trash Reason, just want to point where it falls short in my eyes.

This is all subjective. It's the opposite in my case, as recently I've found the newer Reason instruments are amazing sounding (Europa, Algoritm, Complex-1, Objekt, Friktion...), even after having tried all sorts of latest and classic VSTs.

[gaggle of hermits]

As the focus of reason seems to be shifting towards RRP (it is now the first definition of reason visible in their website), I wonder if they shouldn't put even more emphasis on the support of the combinator 2 by providing much more combinator presets and a way to browse only combinators.... It would really develop the super synth side of reason.
What do you think?

the combinator is the secret weapon, I agree. but it's a bit like the MPE discussion happening in another thread. it's for people who want it, which is far from everybody. with the physical-modelling synths, I think the combinator really comes into its own because it makes it much easier to massage midi coming from real-time controllers that you aim at the modulators in objekt or friktion, particularly with all the CV processors that reason has in the shop (and built in).

one big problem is that the combinator has got a reputation for just building huge one-finger patches that have their uses, but each one is a one-trick pony. combinator presets that more aimed at performance are rarer, and realistically you probably have to build your own to get what you want, which limits the number of people who will use it.

but it's still more convenient than marrying up midi fx plugins with vsts in other daws because the combos are easier to save as single presets.

[pdxindy]

I can't comment on Objekt, Friktion

From listening to demos, I would say Objekt and Friktion are the best general purpose physical modeling synths available today.

If Reason sold both of them as regular VST plugins, they would be instabuys for me.

[Yorrrrrr]

They sound incredible and so expressive.