Stereo vs Mono Mix / Phase Questions

[Negoba]

I have been reading that it's important to see if your mix sounds good in mono to make sure it will translate to different systems. Lo and behold when I hit the mono button on the master bus of a recent project, a bunch of information seems to disappear. I understand this has something to do with phase cancellations but how do you fix this? What can you do in the creation process to prevent this from happening in the first place?

[legendCNCD]

Hard to say as the project is unknown, but have you used wideners? It really depends...

[Negoba]

I did use stereo wideners on several tracks. How does that come into play?

[Benedict]

You really need to post the track itself if you want useful answers. Otherwise, it is random guesses.

What I would say is that while stereo width and "bigness" will evaporate, collapsing to mono will only have instruments truly disappear if the mix has serious issues. These commonly come from hard panning and wideners esp those using the Haas method. There are other possible reasons too.

Phase cancellation occurs when you have the same (or similar enough) signals that are inverted or mirror images of each other. These can exist in a wide stereo field and seem fine (exciting even) but once put together, will cancel each other:

-1 + 1 = 0
1 + -1 = 0

Stereo wideners are very unwise tools to use. There are far better methods to use to create a Deep & Wide mix that will collapse to stereo - and even survive a left-only or right-only mono. Stereo wideners really became popular only from plugin sellers and YouBoob Tipz n Trix Tuts which are often fronts for selling Pluginz (that often have no cause to exist past taking coin from the gullible - like stripey Van Halen guitars that cannot make me Eddie no matter how much I spend and waste time tapping on).

Understand that mix Translation is NEVER about sounding the same, it is about the message - Scene & Story of the Song - still being delivered. Mono-checking will tell you if there are gross phase issues but really it is about checking for depth and balance. Depth is what really matters in mixing. Width alone is a trap. The mono-check will let you know if the mix really works emotionally.

[Negoba]

Understand that mix Translation is NEVER about sounding the same, it is about the message - Scene & Story of the Song - still being delivered. Mono-checking will tell you if there are gross phase issues but really it is about checking for depth and balance. Depth is what really matters in mixing. Width alone is a trap. The mono-check will let you know if the mix really works emotionally.

Thanks, this is very helpful. I come from the arena of recording rock and acoustic music and did a lot of hard pan doubling where I actually recorded everything twice. Stereo wideners seemed to just make life so much easier. The point about message of the song is really great.

BTW, here's the track:

https://soundcloud.com/negoba/wading-th ... al_sharing

[Benedict]

I like where you are going with the feel of the music.

I do wonder if you have one reverb space for the whole piece as it feels to me like several parts are in different rooms. This will diminish the illusion of Scene.

Everything in mixing is relative. This means that if you want something to seem wide, other things have to be not-wide. This contrast is how you build the illusion. Making everything wide simply creates confusion or soup.

There is a build-up lump in the low mids which could use a few db out in either a bus or the master.

Again, I like where you are going on this and other tracks. My personal music has similar intent - esp the album I did with a guitarist.

[Negoba]

I like where you are going with the feel of the music.

I do wonder if you have one reverb space for the whole piece as it feels to me like several parts are in different rooms. This will diminish the illusion of Scene.

Everything in mixing is relative. This means that if you want something to seem wide, other things have to be not-wide. This contrast is how you build the illusion. Making everything wide simply creates confusion or soup.

There is a build-up lump in the low mids which could use a few db out in either a bus or the master.

Again, I like where you are going on this and other tracks. My personal music has similar intent - esp the album I did with a guitarist.

I really appreciate the time you spent to give specific feedback. It's really helpful and I'm excited to get back in the studio and re-mix this. I have definitely felt that my mixes feel a little more cluttered than professional mixes or even those by other home musicians with a little more experience. So I'll work on not having everything full so wide and work on the master bus EQ some more.

[legendCNCD]

One can also compose in mono and mix in mono until stereo is needed Helped me tremendously back when starting.

[Benedict]

One can also compose in mono and mix in mono until stereo is needed Helped me tremendously back when starting.

This is a good exercise. Sometimes I switch to mono and forget to go back. Stereo moves can be made whilst in mono! And once you have the feel, they work out really well. If stereo if a problem, swapping to mono can help find a better solution.

[_al_]

Also worth noting that using Mid / Side processing can give some unexpected results, when collapsing to mono (Depending on how you use it)

Basically, if something has been processed using M/S, when you switch that signal to mono, the side signal actually disappears.
So lets say you do something funky, like add some distortion to just the side signal of a vocal track.
As soon as someone listens in mono, they will hear no distortion whatsoever. It will be completely dry.
Same thing if you decide to EQ the side independently. It will have a completely different tonal balance in mono.

Really weird process. I'm told it's because the right channel is a phase inverted version of the left, and honestly, that freaks me out enough to just not use M/S processing, and stick with traditional widening techniques (I will even use HAAS before M/S lol)

That said, in most cases, you will never have sounds completely disappearing, but you need to be aware of this side effect when using reverb sends and stuff (don't have channels set to "side only", as they will literally disappear)

[Negoba]

I do wonder if you have one reverb space for the whole piece as it feels to me like several parts are in different rooms.

Making everything wide simply creates confusion or soup.

There is a build-up lump in the low mids which could use a few db out in either a bus or the master.

Benedict and others,

I did a major re-mix. I used a simpler approach, first in mono and then just little sprinkles of stereo (mostly coming from the reverb bus). I discarded all the stereo expanders. All reverb is through the reverb bus. (Minor exception is that main guitar lead has some delay).

To me it sounds clearer, and I don't really miss any of the effects from before.

But I'd love to hear from others - is there less soup? Does it sound more like it is in one space? Did I fix that persnickety low mid hump?

Thanks for all the help everyone.

[Benedict]

Howdy again

Instantly the sfx and synth intro feel more like they belong together. The geetar leaps out. It still feels like part of the space just forward as it should. Overall this is feeling a lot more natural (than I remember so that is only a memory of a feeling - not an A-B). Overall it feels warmer and more engaging which is exactly what any music lover should be hoping for.

Well done

[Negoba]

Howdy again

Instantly the sfx and synth intro feel more like they belong together. The geetar leaps out. It still feels like part of the space just forward as it should. Overall this is feeling a lot more natural (than I remember so that is only a memory of a feeling - not an A-B). Overall it feels warmer and more engaging which is exactly what any music lover should be hoping for.

Well done

Thanks you for you feedback which has already taught me a lot. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and also the time to listen through the track more than once.

I have a new workflow now.

[legendCNCD]

Sounds much better! Great!

[Negoba]

Sounds much better! Great!

Thanks for the extra listen. I'm going to using your idea to mix in mono first and then add sprinkles of stereo (not widening) afterward as my basic workflow moving forward.