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shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:43 pm

SO I am moving onto Music Theory II and at the very beginning of 'strict' counterpoint. Here is my question. In E flat Major the first three notes of the CF in the treble clef are Eb-D-Eb The first notes in bass clef are Eb and Bb and I am asked to find the third. The correct answer given is G, but I came up with Ab...I can see why G is an answer, but with was wrong with A flat ?

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:58 pm

Eb = 1
F = 2
G = 3
Ab = 4

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:00 pm

The lower voice is Ab, so it's a P5, not a 4th

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:02 pm

"asked to find the third" - the third *what*?
The third of a tertial harmony _on Eb_ is G. This does not seem like any Music Theory II quiz tho

cryophonik · Post by **cryophonik** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:12 pm

shugs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:00 pm The lower voice is Ab, so it's a P5, not a 4th

You never mentioned an Ab in your post. The piece is clearly in Ebmaj. Presumably, the question regarding the third is referring to the tonic, which explains why the answer is G. Ab makes no sense at all. In the key of Eb, Ab is a third above F and a third below C, and neither of these notes appear in your example.

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:16 pm

I'm sorry if I have stated the question poorly. We are in the key of Eb Major. I am given three notes of the CF in the top voice Eb-D-Eb. I am asked to find the third note in the lower voice where the first two are Eb followed by a Bb....My answer was A flat, to create a P5. The answer given is G.

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:18 pm

the span between G in the lower voice and Eb in the upper voice is a 6th, which is a correct answer. I do not know what was wrong with the A flat. When I play the notes on the piano, it sounds fine...

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:14 pm

First species counterpoint is a rhythmical relation between notes, not a harmonical. It is when two or more voices are played with exactly the same rhythm, e.g. like harmonizing one voice with another without rhythmical variations between them. It is also called note-against-note because they enter simultanously. In contrast, second species is two notes against one, third species is four notes against one, fourth species is different note off-sets by suspensions, and fifth species is all of them together, called florid counterpoint. The rules of harmonization can vary widely according to style, but a species is a species, no matter whether we speak of Palestrina, Fux or Debussy.

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:57 pm

yes, I know most of that...But in the first species, there must be some sort of rule that is 'forbidding' me to put an A flat as the third note....I am wondering if going from a Bb to an Ab , being a 7th is the problem

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:40 pm

it seems probable Ab is considered a dissonance and in particular the approach from '5' to this '4' isn't allowed. NB: If Eb = 1, Ab = 4 regardless of position, btb.

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:53 pm

that's my guess, so I'll see if I can confirm it....Yes if Eb =1 then Ab = 4 and this would be dissonant if played together and not allowed.....but if Ab=1 then Eb =5 and this is allowed to be played together.....I'm thinking the Ab is not allowed to follow the Bb melodically will be the answer. at least for the moment

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:57 pm

If I understand you correctly, OP, then you have an upper voice starting with Eb, the lower voice is Eb too. Does this mean they are an octave apart or are they unison? I presume Eb major is key. I also presume, we are talking about two-voice writing whose rules can deviate slightly from three or four voices.

Then you have a D in the upper part and a Bb in the lower as the next step. Is this a major third or an octave + major third (10th)?

Then you want to move from this third or 10th to a fifth right? From Bb-D to Ab-Eb, while the solution says G-Eb.

Two things can be a problem with the P5. If your Bb-D is a 10th, then you are moving from an imperfect consonance to a perfect consonance in parallel/direct motion. But third rule of counterpoint says that movements from imperfect to perfect consonances must happen in contrary or obligue motion. So parallel motion is a no-go here. However if you go from a major third to the perfect fifth, it is in contrary motion and allowed. The other problem is if the three notes in the CF are the last ones in a section. Then you do not have a fullfilled cadence, because you have suspended the third and replaced it with the fourth, which normally would ask for a resolution. You are not allowed to end a cadence on a sus4 harmony. If it is part of the cadence, it is not the ending harmony but meant to resolve into a complete harmony (one with a third). When I play the three intervals (using an octave for the first step and Bb-D as a third and not a 10th), it sounds quite fullfilled with the G solution, while unresolved with the Ab, which creates a sus4 sense.

shugs · Post by **shugs** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:20 am

I think you have nailed it....I did not know going to a perfect fifth in parallel motion or similar motion was disallowed .

BTW. I like your use of the word presumption. I presume that you know the difference between a presumption and an assumption

TribeOfHǫfuð · Post by **TribeOfHǫfuð** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:09 am

shugs wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:20 am I think you have nailed it....I did not know going to a perfect fifth in parallel motion or similar motion was disallowed .

At some point in Gradus, Fux has an example in three part writing where he breaks the third rule himself because he thinks the alternative is worse. They are more ideals than such strict rules as people like to think.

BTW. I like your use of the word presumption. I presume that you know the difference between a presumption and an assumption

Yup, and that is why I like your own use with respect to my use of it

Anyway, I´ll sum the four rules of movement, should you need them at another point:

1. From one perfect consonance to another, move in contrary or oblique motion.
2. From a perfect consonance to an imperfect consonance, move in any motion.
3. From an imperfect consonance to a perfect consonance, move in contrary or oblique motion.
4. From an imperfect consonance to another imperfect consonance, move in any motion.

Cheers

ahanysz · Post by **ahanysz** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:31 am

To be honest, I prefer the A flat. It makes the bass feel more like an independent melody rather than a broken chord accompaniment.

From B flat to A flat, the bass would be descending, right? And the treble voice goes *up* from D to E flat? I don't see how it can be anything other than contrary motion, so it's not breaking any rules. (Some of the other replies in this thread aren't making sense to me!)

If it were me, I'd assume the three given notes are meant as the start of a longer composition. Because who writes a piece of music that's only three notes? (Don't answer that! I know people have done such crazy things. But they're generally not sticking to the rules of species counterpoint.) If someone is telling you that A flat is "wrong", the only thing I can think of is that they've made a different assumption. Does your three-note cantus firmus have a fermata over the third note, or a double bar at the end?

counterpoint - first species