All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

[commerce]

No need to wait for big players, just get a LinnStrument or Erae Touch or Seaboard(block) or Joué…

You are right.
Nobody needs the "big players" if we have a LinnStrument or Erae Touch.
Roger Linn is a genius.

[jules99]

No need to wait for big players, just get a LinnStrument or Erae Touch or Seaboard(block) or Joué… You need to want it though. Best is to get your hands on a device to experience this immediate kind of sound control. I will never ever want a keyboard again, its just too boring…

I own a Seaboard Block and have been a fan for a long time! I'm just baffled that even after 7 years of being available and almost every DAW supporting it, MPE is still not found in any new controller by the big players. Compared to Novation's, M-Audio's and Akai's numbers of sold controllers, sales of MPE controllers are still a tiny, tiny fraction of that.

If one of them actually started including it in a series of controllers, adoption would be much wider. Which would result in many more instruments and MPE-ready presets. We're still far away from that.

[Tj Shredder]

They can't think out of their box. Without hands-on experience its difficult. Roli as well is still on the concept of a traditional keyboard. If you stick to that, its not going to be cheap. Osmose is the one other attempt. If you go versus LinnStrument or Sensel, you got easier options. They would need to buy patents if they don't want to do the research themself. To pull out another model of a bunch of on/off switches is easy and requires a minicule effort in comparison, and delivers a higher profit (that is what they care about)...
Its not that it will change when big players jump on, it needs more artists who show it on stage. Showing single videos like Jordan Rudess, is maybe not enough. We need a Wendy Carlos / Keith Emerson kind of virtuoso. The young musicians at the beginning of their career need to get inspired by it...

[pdxindy]

I own a Seaboard Block and have been a fan for a long time! I'm just baffled that even after 7 years of being available and almost every DAW supporting it, MPE is still not found in any new controller by the big players. Compared to Novation's, M-Audio's and Akai's numbers of sold controllers, sales of MPE controllers are still a tiny, tiny fraction of that.

If one of them actually started including it in a series of controllers, adoption would be much wider. Which would result in many more instruments and MPE-ready presets. We're still far away from that.

The big players know it is a niche affair. Most people barely play keyboards these days.

At this point, I am satisfied with adoption. I have a Linnstrument and an ERAE Touch and an Osmose on the way. U-he has the Osmose already and the peeps who work there have all been using it. So it is very likely that u-he synths will support its unique approach (MPE+). Lots of synths already support MPE. More than enough to satisfy any of my needs.

In terms of expressive playing, I am satisfied with my existing tools. And combined with Bitwig I can do amazing stuff as is. The development of CLAP is huge with the PolyMod.

Presets are the only thing lacking... and that is an inherent issue. Setting up presets that work with Linnstrument, one would want to adjust them to fit the ERAE Touch and they would not even be applicable to the Osmose and MPE+. To me, that is part of the charm of MPE is that it is less mass produced.

[commerce]

The big players know it is a niche affair. Most people barely play keyboards these days.

It much easier to use a piano roll than the classical musical notation, because it is better.

It is much easier to learn to play an isomorphic keyboard than the classical keyboard (where some keys are black for no rational reason).
Intervals/chords for any root note look same.
MPE is just a bonus.

[jules99]

isomorphic keyboard

What controllers are you referring to? I assume something like this?

While I agree that the classical layout of pianos can be confusing, aren't you contradicting yourself by also praising the piano roll which is based on the layout of the piano?

Also, I disagree about the added bonus of MPE. It is a whole new world of expressivity that if you have ever played a controller, makes standard MIDI controller seem very rigid.

[commerce]

isomorphic keyboard

What controllers are you referring to? I assume something like this?

Linnstrument is isomorphic.

While I agree that the classical layout of pianos can be confusing, aren't you contradicting yourself by also praising the piano roll which is based on the layout of the piano?

Absolutely not. In the piano roll all notes are equal.
The black notes are black/darker just as reference to the classical keyboard.
And this reference is just for the people who use the classical keyboard or were trained this way.
But the "piano roll" (it is only a name, we can call it a "note roll", "guitar string roll" etc) can work also without this distinction exactly the same way.
E.g. guitar or saxophone players do not care what notes are black on piano.
They just need a "note roll".
There is really no rational or musical reason why exactly these 5 keys are black and smaller. Every second key could have been black. Or all of the same color and shape.

And the classical music notation is based on the C major scale. Again, no reason why this scale should be easier to use than the others. Only a historic reason.
Objectively the isomorphic keyboard and the piano roll are much much better.
You can teach people with zero knowledge much much faster.

I learned to read (without any effort) before I went to school, because the Latin alphabet has only twenty something characters.
I doubt that any child in China could read in Chinese before school, because they have thousands of characters.

Some solutions are just more practical and ergonomic than others.

Also, I disagree about the added bonus of MPE. It is a whole new world of expressivity that if you have ever played a controller, makes standard MIDI controller seem very rigid.

My concept of music is that the melody/harmony (plus rhythm) is the most important.
Then MPE is only a bonus to an isomorphic keyboard like Linnstrument.
A great bonus, of course, but I still need the melody first.

If you do not care about melody and are into atonal/amelodic music, then I could understand that MPE is for you the most important thing. But I doubt that this is your case. Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody? One of them?

[jules99]

Absolutely not. In the piano roll all notes are equal.

This I agree with.

Objectively the isomorphic keyboard and the piano roll are much much better.
You can teach people with zero knowledge much much faster.

Citation needed. While I would have never dreamed of defending classical Western music theory and have been studying the many new publications on the growing school of "Groove Theory" to get a new perspective on music education, your reasoning is anything but. What is your authority to claim that any of these systems are "objectively better"?

I learned to read (without any effort) before I went to school, because the Latin alphabet has only twenty something characters.

I doubt that any child in China could read in Chinese before school, because they have thousands of characters.

Some solutions are just more practical and ergonomic than others.

Many, many citations needed.

If only you'd stayed with the topic of MPE, MPE controllers, and piano roll. You're saying, what? That the piano roll is akin to the Latin alphabet in the same manner as classical Western music theory can be equated to... Chinese? I'm reading this correct?

My concept of music is that the melody/harmony (plus rhythm) is the most important.

Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody? One of them?

Ah, the words of a sequencer and note clicker. Yes, you can build the most intricate and ear-catchy melody by simply double-clicking a bunch of times on your piano roll. And if this suits your taste and style of production, more power to you!

But if you put a controller like the Seaboard, the Osmose, or even the Linnstrument into the hand of a trained piano player, the amount of musical expression and therefore emotion a melody can be expressed with is infinitely higher than with any of us having a clickfest in their piano roll.

[commerce]

Objectively the isomorphic keyboard and the piano roll are much much better.
You can teach people with zero knowledge much much faster.

Citation needed. While I would have never dreamed of defending classical Western music theory and have been studying the many new publications on the growing school of "Groove Theory" to get a new perspective on music education, your reasoning is anything but. What is your authority to claim that any of these systems are
"objectively better"?

Citation is not needed. It is logical. You can test it yourself.
With 100 random people or 1000 random people.
The result will be always very clear.
(Is is easier to remember one long number or seven numbers of the same length?
One.
Citation? Not needed. It is logical.
Is there a person who can run 700m faster than 100m?
No. I do not need clinical trials for that.)

It is NOT about Western musical theory!
I guess you do not understand what I am talking about.
Because it is NOT about Western musical theory at all.
Most of the instruments in the Western music do not have piano-like keyboard with 5 smaller black keys.
The layout of the keyboard has no influence how the music sounds, only that you can learn to play it faster. It is always the same Western music. You can play the same Western music on a Linnstrument.

I learned to read (without any effort) before I went to school, because the Latin alphabet has only twenty something characters.

I doubt that any child in China could read in Chinese before school, because they have thousands of characters.

Some solutions are just more practical and ergonomic than others.

Many, many citations needed.

If only you'd stayed with the topic of MPE, MPE controllers, and piano roll. You're saying, what? That the piano roll is akin to the Latin alphabet in the same manner as classical Western music theory can be equated to... Chinese? I'm reading this correct?

I am not saying what you are saying that I am saying.
I speak for myself. You should too.

No citation is needed. Are you serious?
Find me one preschool Chinese (or any other) child that can learn 5000 Chinese characters in one day.
I will have no problem to find one preschool Chinese (or any other) child that can learn 30 Latin characters in one day.

Why are you always talking about classical Western music theory?
Nothing from my post was about classical Western music theory.
You pretend that I am talking about classical Western music theory,
but I am not, I was talking about the keyboard layout and music notation (used for Western music or any music where the octave has 12 semitones).
I wrote nothing about any kind of music theory.
I am OK with the music theory or theories as they are (and there is more than one) or even will be in the future.
I am NOT talking about any kind of music theory here.
If you like to discuss music theories, you need to find somebody else or discuss just with yourself.

My concept of music is that the melody/harmony (plus rhythm) is the most important.

Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody? One of them?

Ah, the words of a sequencer and note clicker. Yes, you can build the most intricate and ear-catchy melody by simply double-clicking a bunch of times on your piano roll. And if this suits your taste and style of production, more power to you!

No, I do NOT want that and I did NOT write that. Do not speak for me. Less power to your fiction.

But if you put a controller like the Seaboard, the Osmose, or even the Linnstrument into the hand of a trained piano player, the amount of musical expression and therefore emotion a melody can be expressed with is infinitely higher than with any of us having a clickfest in their piano roll.

Again:
Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody/harmony?

I celebrate MPE, but MPE whiteout a song is nothing.
A song without MPE is still something.
And some physical instruments are less expressive than others.
That is why the more expressive ones are used to demo MPE controllers.
MPE is revolutionary, because it brings MIDI controllers to the same level as physical instruments.
That is why I wrote that Roger Linn is a genius.

[pdxindy]

If you do not care about melody and are into atonal/amelodic music, then I could understand that MPE is for you the most important thing. But I doubt that this is your case. Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody? One of them?

I think you may be misunderstanding what MPE is.

A lot of my favorite music has guitars... and guitar players routinely bend notes as part of a melody. Bending one note without bending every note is MPE.

[commerce]

If you do not care about melody and are into atonal/amelodic music, then I could understand that MPE is for you the most important thing. But I doubt that this is your case. Tell me your 10 favorite songs. Is any of them based primarily on MPE and not on melody? One of them?

I think you may be misunderstanding what MPE is.

A lot of my favorite music has guitars... and guitar players routinely bend notes as part of a melody. Bending one note without bending every note is MPE.

I know what MPE is.
And I agree with what you said about guitars.
(For some reason jules99 mentioned "trained piano player"...)
There are videos of guitar players using Linnstrument for the first time
and they did not need much practice.

[jules99]

Back on topic, the many videos on Expressive-E's Osmose show a very promising MPE controller. I'm curious how this thing would work in live performance given just how sensitive its keys seem. Also, in that regard, how It holds up in a rougher touring situation over a longer period of time.

Luckily the manufacturer has opted for repairability, you supposedly only need to standard screwdrivers to take the whole thing apart.

I'd love to have a version without the digital synth built in, just an MPE controller, because the 1,799 Euro price tag is a bit steep.

[pdxindy]

I'd love to have a version without the digital synth built in, just an MPE controller, because the 1,799 Euro price tag is a bit steep.

Currently there are almost no synths (hardware or software) that can fully make use of the Osmose in the way that the included synth does.

[SteveElbows]

Currently there are almost no synths (hardware or software) that can fully make use of the Osmose in the way that the included synth does.

Although this is technically correct due to a lack of MPE+ synths, in practice there are very many scenarios where it makes hardly any difference, and where MPE synths are able to make great use of the Osmose.

The other limitation with the non-Haken midi output is that unlike usb midi port 2 (Haken MPE+) the other midi outputs dont send the arpeggiator and pressure-weighted portamento stuff in the current version of the firmware. However since MPE+ is backwards compatible with MPE it is possible to get access to these things for controlling other synths by using the Haken midi output from usb port 2 to control the other synths instead. And this should just be a temporary limitation.

[pdxindy]

Currently there are almost no synths (hardware or software) that can fully make use of the Osmose in the way that the included synth does.

Although this is technically correct due to a lack of MPE+ synths, in practice there are very many scenarios where it makes hardly any difference, and where MPE synths are able to make great use of the Osmose.

Let's see some evidence of that practice.

I have yet to see a demo using an external synth that has the expressive playability of some of the included presets.