Recreating This Bass Sound

[Eclectrophonic]

Hi All!

I've been trying to recreate this bass sound done on the Roland Alpha Juno 2 but just can't. Can't get it's punchiness and thickness. Using Propellerhead Reason. Tried Thor, tried U-He Repro 5 and IK Multimedia Syntronik Memory Moog and just not getting close to how nice this is.

https://youtu.be/UdJZgOKsA7E?t=1107

I thought adding Softube Saturation Knob might help but no.

[Benedict]

It is far more in the programming than the VST.

The Alpha Juno is in fact probably closer to most soft synths than earlier VCO machines.

If it were me, I'd probably use Subtractor as that has a more Juno filter compared to the Moog/Oberheim options in Thor. As for that sound at 22:20, I'd probably use either one of the higher wave shapes in Sub or even the PD or FM Osc in Thor and minimal filtering as they were made to emulate the DX sound.

[Benedict]

Oh and if you have it, Europa is a good option too, esp if you turn on Phase Sync for the OSC. Don't use Unison but a nice wide Chorus.

[Eclectrophonic]

I'll try Subtractor tomorrow but if Thor can't do it I doubt Subtractor can. Think Europa might stand a chance. Not sure how good Thor's chorus is and Subtractor doesn't have one. I could add the chorus / flanger, d'ya recommend that?

I get the feeling analogue has something over digital for bass sounds as I had the same problem a few weeks ago.

[BONES]

It's a 41 minute video, which sound, precisely, are you looking to emulate? Everything I've heard in the first two minutes could be made with pretty much anything.

[Benedict]

Here is a video that talks about this very Question (oh and one about "bad" mixes which turns out to be a "bad" question).
https://youtu.be/zu5Od5fUrm8

[Eclectrophonic]

It's a 41 minute video, which sound, precisely, are you looking to emulate? Everything I've heard in the first two minutes could be made with pretty much anything.

Well the video starts at the point where the bass sound starts or should do but anyway, 18m28s.

[Eclectrophonic]

Here is a video that talks about this very Question (oh and one about "bad" mixes which turns out to be a "bad" question).
https://youtu.be/zu5Od5fUrm8

Brilliant Benedict, loved the video. Thanks for that.

This kind of thing is very enjoyable to watch and has taught me a lot about synthesis.

Anyway, so yeah, I was tryna use the Analog Osc on Thor at first, which as you mentioned, was probably the wrong oscillator type to begin with and I'd be better using the FM Pair or the Phase Distortion oscillator types.

So it's a good idea yeah to research the synthesizer and the synthesis method first before tying to emulte the sound rather than just cracking on saying, oh Thor should be best here basing it on nothing. Sounds obvious really doesn't it.

It all depends on what synthesis method, filter types and envelopes (linear / exponential / logirithmic) are used. Not heard of logirithmic before. Any particular synths / vst's you know of that use this envelope method?

So trying to recreate this bass sound.

Firstly, I found the manual for the Roland Alpha Juno 2 so should tell us loads of useful info in there.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/10113 ... uno-2.html

Haven't read through that yet, will do later.

So I opened Europa as you say and I used the Basic Analog Oscillator fully open to give me a full sawtooth. Was there any particular reason for choosing a sawtooth wave by the way to recreate this bass? not saying it's wrong or anything.

I then added Chorus, wasn't sure what to do with it, not that clued up on Chorus and how it exactly works. I do this silly thing of aimlessly tweaking it when I don't know what I'm doing with it till it sounds good. Not a great approach.

I also hear resonance (there's a squelchy-ness to it) and is there a touch of reverb too or is it decay? he might be adding reverb himself externally with a rackmount mightn't he? The circuity of that might be adding to the overall sound too.

Just realised the filter on Europa is a filter for all 3 engines too which I find a bit frustrating, we need one for each engine!

Just looked it up in the manual too, the Env parameter on the engine, that is for the Shape Modulation Source which you can change if you click the drop down, you had that turned down. When you adjusted your envelope, did you notice it doing anything, I don't notice anything happening on my patch when I'm changing it, I thought that Env knob might be to turn it on. Don't think it is is it?

I also notice a kind of knock sound right at the beginning of each key hit. I don't mean the key depression either. Is that created by the reverb perhaps?

Anyway, I haven't got there yet. Feels like I'm still a long way off so I'm still working on it. Save it it is. I need to read that Juno 2 manual later too. Have to go out so gonna have to return to it later.

P.S - So it sounds as though Phase Lock should be added to the Anolog Oscillator in Thor, seems pretty necassary in a lot of cases. Would it be needed on other oscillators too?

[Eclectrophonic]

Just come across (in the manual) a different sound character / tone for the Juno 2 - Brilliance. Heard that before. Think it was on an Abbey Rd VST.

It's on page 4 of the manual. There are 4 Tone Modify buttons, 1 being Brilliance. They could be being used on that bass sound perhaps.

[BONES]

It's a 41 minute video, which sound, precisely, are you looking to emulate? Everything I've heard in the first two minutes could be made with pretty much anything.

Well the video starts at the point where the bass sound starts or should do but anyway, 18m28s.

Only if you click on the link. I was listening to it in your post, where it starts from the beginning. Anyway,, that's a pretty standard synth bass sound to my ears. I'd imagine you could do it with any half-decent synth with a good filter. Avoid synths with ladder-styler filters, the bottom end will drop out, and program it such that the filter is mostly closed. i.e. Set the cutoff at zero and use envelope modulation to get close, then increase the cutoff a bit if you need to add a bit more brightness to the sound (but only if you need to). With low cutoff values you won't need much resonance and small changes will have a big impact, so you need a bit of finesse to balance everything and get the result you want. The objective is to make the resonance boost the bottom end and get that fatness into the sound, so you don't need a huge amount of modulation. Obviously there is velocity being sent to cutoff but I'd keep that fairly subtle, too. There is also a bit of vibrato that seems to be linked to aftertouch.

[Benedict]

I do this silly thing of aimlessly tweaking it when I don't know what I'm doing with it till it sounds good. Not a great approach.

You and many others I remember reading something in an article decades back of some Johhny come lately synth "guru" saying how clever he was because knowing what the knobs on his synth did ruined his creativity so taped em all over with black Gaffa Tape. That is the essence of Ignorance - i could learn but I choose not to.

Slow down and focus on one thing at a time as that way you can learn to be in control. Otherwise, you will waste a lifetime reinventing the same broken wheel.

When in doubt use a Sawtooth wave. If it sounds hollow, it may be a Square. Nasal a Pulse.

Thors Analog OSC being freerunning is in keeping with its intent. Only a few synths used the locked OSC and it was really a failure at the time as it strips organic feel from the playability of the sound (this was when people played their synths). Europa lets you choose. And if you look into the Spectral Filter top right you have a mighty per-engine filter.

I don't know the Alpha Juno manual but it may not be a bad starter. I know I owe a lot to the Casio CZ manual which was about the same vintage. Subtractor is a lot like synths of that time and truly a great place to start learning. 20 years on I sill use it heaps. Don't ever see the practical limits as a problem. Work with them and that will be how you find your magic.

On my YouTube & Website, I have a lot of tutorials that you may wish to work your way through. Be methodical and really do the homework so you build the database of options in your brain. It will pay off.

https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2015/09/0 ... aking-art/
https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2019/03/0 ... synthesis/
https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2019/03/2 ... ement-mix/
or in a shorter written form https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2017/01/0 ... ery-sound/

[Eclectrophonic]

program it such that the filter is mostly closed. i.e. Set the cutoff at zero and use envelope modulation to get close, then increase the cutoff a bit if you need to add a bit more brightness to the sound (but only if you need to). With low cutoff values you won't need much resonance and small changes will have a big impact, so you need a bit of finesse to balance everything and get the result you want. The objective is to make the resonance boost the bottom end and get that fatness into the sound, so you don't need a huge amount of modulation. Obviously there is velocity being sent to cutoff but I'd keep that fairly subtle, too. There is also a bit of vibrato that seems to be linked to aftertouch.

Not sure what you mean by the first sentence. Cut off to zero will kill all the sound, so then you modulate that, might sound stupid, but how d'you do that? and wouldn't you turn up the resonance make it brighter? have you got Reason and can explain that using Subtractor?

I need "velocity being sent to the cut off" explaining too. Not sure what vibrato linked to aftertouch means either. Sorry to sound stupid.

[AnX]

basically, you dont know anything about programming a synth?

[Eclectrophonic]

basically, you dont know anything about programming a synth?

I thought I did lol!

I have been trying to recreate it on Subtractor now on Reason (was using Europa) but Subtractor just sounds nowhere near in comparison to the video example.

Europa sounds a lot better.

[BONES]

Cut off to zero will kill all the sound, so then you modulate that, might sound stupid, but how d'you do that?

Exactly as I said - cutoff to zero, then add envelope modulation. The envelope will then have 100% control of the cutoff frequency, although adding in a bit of velocity modulation will allow you to put some nice variation into it easily.

… wouldn't you turn up the resonance make it brighter? have you got Reason and can explain that using Subtractor?

No, I don't have Reason but the thing to remember with resonance is that it acts around the cutoff frequency so if your filter starts and ends at zero, resonance will be affecting the very lowest frequencies in your sound, as well as the brighter part. That's the secret to getting big, ballsy bass. Looking at the Subtractor GUI, turn Freq to zero, then turn up the Amt knob on the Filter Envelope

I need "velocity being sent to the cut off" explaining too. Not sure what vibrato linked to aftertouch means either. Sorry to sound stupid.

Add a bit of F. Env from the Velocity section. Start subtle, say around 2 o'clock, then tweak it to suit. If you vary the velocity for each note in your sequencer it adds a bit of variety into the bassline, makes it a bit less robotic. As for vibrato, if you watch the video you can see the player wiggling his finger on a key here and there, like he's a guitarist. When he does that you can here a bit of vibrato in the sound. It might be programmed into it or he might be triggering it with aftertouch, I'm not sure. In Subtractor, you'd set that up in the Ext. Mod section (below Polyphony). Select A. Touch and then add a little with the LFO 1 knob. Of course, you'd have to set LFO 1 up for vibrato - a fairly fast triangle wave sent to Osc 1, 2. A subtle amount of modulation will get that nice warble into the sound. If you turn up the amount knob on the LFO you will hear it all the time but if you only have it turned up for aftertouch, you'll only hear it when you want it (assuming you have a keyboard with aftertouch, of course).

A lot of synths have a Delay parameter in the LFO, which means you only get the vibrato on longer notes, but Subtractor doesn't have this so you may need to use aftertouch to fake it.