i get that you're speaking from frustration , but this is not even remotely true ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:13 pmTrust me, you're not telling me something I don't already know. In my 42 years of doing this, I've hooked up with the agent who brought Levine and Brown (Tony Orlando & Dawn fame) together and the guy who discovered Bon Jovi (Steve Zuckerman). I hooked up with a guy who wrote for The 4 Seasons. My mother was in radio as a talk show host. None of my contacts, none of their contacts, made a hill of beans worth of difference.deastman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:49 pm Back to page one, the answer is networking. The more industry people you get to know, the more likely you are to be introduced to the right people who can help you. Make friends and acquaintances with studio owners, producers, musicians, singers, songwriters, A&R people, record company executives, and the people who do their dry cleaning. You want a magic bullet? Do good work, send demos out into the ether, and cross your fingers. You want to make it in the industry? Become part of the industry. I’m sorry, I know that isn’t what you want to hear, but it’s the reality. Who you know is just as important as what you know. I have a family friend who writes songs for Beyoncé and a bunch of other A-listers. She didn’t get her big break by mailing off demos to record labels.
Point is, having contacts is still no guarantee. There are no guarantees. 1% of the people who try to make it in this business make it.
Ultimately, it comes down to priorities. Do I want to spend what's left of my life traveling around the country hoping to get somebody to give me the time of day or do I spend it enjoying the time I have left. And yeah, I get that it's one or the other. Plus, I have responsibilities here. I can't just pick myself up and leave town. There are people here depending on me.
Anyway, maybe starting this thread was a mistake to begin with. I was hoping for an "easy" answer but it's clear that one doesn't exist. Hell, an insanely difficult answer doesn't even exist. This is without a doubt the toughest business on the planet.
Like I didn't already know that.
No More Excuses...Please Help A Wannabe Songwriter
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experimental.crow experimental.crow https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6258
- KVRAF
- 6895 posts since 9 Mar, 2003 from the bridge of sighs
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
You got stats to prove otherwise? What other business besides entertainment (yes, I'm talking entertainment in general) is harder?experimental.crow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:25 pmi get that you're speaking from frustration , but this is not even remotely true ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:13 pmTrust me, you're not telling me something I don't already know. In my 42 years of doing this, I've hooked up with the agent who brought Levine and Brown (Tony Orlando & Dawn fame) together and the guy who discovered Bon Jovi (Steve Zuckerman). I hooked up with a guy who wrote for The 4 Seasons. My mother was in radio as a talk show host. None of my contacts, none of their contacts, made a hill of beans worth of difference.deastman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:49 pm Back to page one, the answer is networking. The more industry people you get to know, the more likely you are to be introduced to the right people who can help you. Make friends and acquaintances with studio owners, producers, musicians, singers, songwriters, A&R people, record company executives, and the people who do their dry cleaning. You want a magic bullet? Do good work, send demos out into the ether, and cross your fingers. You want to make it in the industry? Become part of the industry. I’m sorry, I know that isn’t what you want to hear, but it’s the reality. Who you know is just as important as what you know. I have a family friend who writes songs for Beyoncé and a bunch of other A-listers. She didn’t get her big break by mailing off demos to record labels.
Point is, having contacts is still no guarantee. There are no guarantees. 1% of the people who try to make it in this business make it.
Ultimately, it comes down to priorities. Do I want to spend what's left of my life traveling around the country hoping to get somebody to give me the time of day or do I spend it enjoying the time I have left. And yeah, I get that it's one or the other. Plus, I have responsibilities here. I can't just pick myself up and leave town. There are people here depending on me.
Anyway, maybe starting this thread was a mistake to begin with. I was hoping for an "easy" answer but it's clear that one doesn't exist. Hell, an insanely difficult answer doesn't even exist. This is without a doubt the toughest business on the planet.
Like I didn't already know that.
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Yeah, there are really a few different factors which all need to line up. You have to be really good at what you do. You have to network and meet people who can help you. You have to be a generally likable person, dependable, and easy to deal with. And you have to have luck, because even with all the other stuff, this is still like winning the lottery.
Personally, I let go of that dream years ago. I just want to do good work and enjoy what I’m doing. That’s enough.
Personally, I let go of that dream years ago. I just want to do good work and enjoy what I’m doing. That’s enough.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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experimental.crow experimental.crow https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6258
- KVRAF
- 6895 posts since 9 Mar, 2003 from the bridge of sighs
spend thirty days working in a pediatric cancer ward , and get back to me ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:28 pmYou got stats to prove otherwise? What other business besides entertainment (yes, I'm talking entertainment in general) is harder?experimental.crow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:25 pmi get that you're speaking from frustration , but this is not even remotely true ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:13 pmTrust me, you're not telling me something I don't already know. In my 42 years of doing this, I've hooked up with the agent who brought Levine and Brown (Tony Orlando & Dawn fame) together and the guy who discovered Bon Jovi (Steve Zuckerman). I hooked up with a guy who wrote for The 4 Seasons. My mother was in radio as a talk show host. None of my contacts, none of their contacts, made a hill of beans worth of difference.deastman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:49 pm Back to page one, the answer is networking. The more industry people you get to know, the more likely you are to be introduced to the right people who can help you. Make friends and acquaintances with studio owners, producers, musicians, singers, songwriters, A&R people, record company executives, and the people who do their dry cleaning. You want a magic bullet? Do good work, send demos out into the ether, and cross your fingers. You want to make it in the industry? Become part of the industry. I’m sorry, I know that isn’t what you want to hear, but it’s the reality. Who you know is just as important as what you know. I have a family friend who writes songs for Beyoncé and a bunch of other A-listers. She didn’t get her big break by mailing off demos to record labels.
Point is, having contacts is still no guarantee. There are no guarantees. 1% of the people who try to make it in this business make it.
Ultimately, it comes down to priorities. Do I want to spend what's left of my life traveling around the country hoping to get somebody to give me the time of day or do I spend it enjoying the time I have left. And yeah, I get that it's one or the other. Plus, I have responsibilities here. I can't just pick myself up and leave town. There are people here depending on me.
Anyway, maybe starting this thread was a mistake to begin with. I was hoping for an "easy" answer but it's clear that one doesn't exist. Hell, an insanely difficult answer doesn't even exist. This is without a doubt the toughest business on the planet.
Like I didn't already know that.
- KVRAF
- 4857 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
Wagtunes, you are a pretty good and dependable songwriter and live near NYC. So all you need to learn is how to network, meet people, be generally likeable, and easy to deal with!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.experimental.crow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:39 pmspend thirty days working in a pediatric cancer ward , and get back to me ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:28 pmYou got stats to prove otherwise? What other business besides entertainment (yes, I'm talking entertainment in general) is harder?experimental.crow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:25 pmi get that you're speaking from frustration , but this is not even remotely true ...wagtunes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:13 pmTrust me, you're not telling me something I don't already know. In my 42 years of doing this, I've hooked up with the agent who brought Levine and Brown (Tony Orlando & Dawn fame) together and the guy who discovered Bon Jovi (Steve Zuckerman). I hooked up with a guy who wrote for The 4 Seasons. My mother was in radio as a talk show host. None of my contacts, none of their contacts, made a hill of beans worth of difference.deastman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:49 pm Back to page one, the answer is networking. The more industry people you get to know, the more likely you are to be introduced to the right people who can help you. Make friends and acquaintances with studio owners, producers, musicians, singers, songwriters, A&R people, record company executives, and the people who do their dry cleaning. You want a magic bullet? Do good work, send demos out into the ether, and cross your fingers. You want to make it in the industry? Become part of the industry. I’m sorry, I know that isn’t what you want to hear, but it’s the reality. Who you know is just as important as what you know. I have a family friend who writes songs for Beyoncé and a bunch of other A-listers. She didn’t get her big break by mailing off demos to record labels.
Point is, having contacts is still no guarantee. There are no guarantees. 1% of the people who try to make it in this business make it.
Ultimately, it comes down to priorities. Do I want to spend what's left of my life traveling around the country hoping to get somebody to give me the time of day or do I spend it enjoying the time I have left. And yeah, I get that it's one or the other. Plus, I have responsibilities here. I can't just pick myself up and leave town. There are people here depending on me.
Anyway, maybe starting this thread was a mistake to begin with. I was hoping for an "easy" answer but it's clear that one doesn't exist. Hell, an insanely difficult answer doesn't even exist. This is without a doubt the toughest business on the planet.
Like I didn't already know that.
Now if you want to talk about emotional difficulty, naturally there is nothing more difficult than watching a human being suffer through any kind of illness, whether it's cancer, Alzheimer's or any other horrible disease.
But if my life depended on making it in the entertainment industry, I might as well just make my last will and testament and say goodbye because I have a better chance beating cancer.
- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
Got stats to prove that?wagtunes wrote:As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.
Maybe one of the reasons you see it as so difficult to make it in the industry is that you have a very specific definition of success, and you're not willing to consider any variation on that (as the majority of people in the entertainments industry do)?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
Hell, if wanting to have one of my songs professionally recorded and commercially released so people at least have a CHANCE to buy it is asking too much then something is VERY wrong with this industry.Forgotten wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 amGot stats to prove that?wagtunes wrote:As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.
Maybe one of the reasons you see it as so difficult to make it in the industry is that you have a very specific definition of success, and you're not willing to consider any variation on that (as the majority of people in the entertainments industry do)?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
But by all means, give me a rock bottom level of success that you would consider me being reasonable in accepting. I guarantee that I haven't even reached THAT level yet.Forgotten wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 amGot stats to prove that?wagtunes wrote:As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.
Maybe one of the reasons you see it as so difficult to make it in the industry is that you have a very specific definition of success, and you're not willing to consider any variation on that (as the majority of people in the entertainments industry do)?
- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
Isn't it up to you to determine that? Maybe you're not as hungry for success as other people who make it? Many of them start with really shitty gigs that they hate, or take on diversions into non-preferred work but they still get there.wagtunes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:43 amBut by all means, give me a rock bottom level of success that you would consider me being reasonable in accepting. I guarantee that I haven't even reached THAT level yet.Forgotten wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 amGot stats to prove that?wagtunes wrote:As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.
Maybe one of the reasons you see it as so difficult to make it in the industry is that you have a very specific definition of success, and you're not willing to consider any variation on that (as the majority of people in the entertainments industry do)?
- KVRAF
- 4857 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
All of that success is within one's control.
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- KVRAF
- 3390 posts since 5 Mar, 2004 from Gold Coast Australia
Back to a useful conversation...
Wags you have some skill as a songwriter for sure. You can jump to the wrong conclusions a bit fast for sure (can't we all). Focus on showing the one and reducing the other. That is in line with your OP and Mr Beato's suggestion.
To show your skills, there is little point in being in Forums like this as a method of being picked up as the next Jimmy Webb. You need to prove that you can get real traction yourself. Neil D, Cat S, Lou R, Willie N, Eddie R... all started out being performers but got signed as songwriters. It was only once they were proven that they could step back over that fence (often by "covering" their own songs back).
Beato is right, stop seeing your limits as excuses: my titties aren't DD so I can't get hits on YouTube, I am 61 so I'm too old, I don't have the right plugins/players, I don't sing as good as Brad Delp did...
Reality is none of those names above could sing as good as Brad Dep, but they made it. Brad Delp made it, unmade it, remade it and then unmade himself. Silly duffer.
You have a lot more going for you than you give yourself credit for. I understand it can be hard to see & trust that but it is there. Do you have enough to "make it"? Who knows. But LOGIC does say that if you don't give it your best, you are guaranteed to fail; so going all-in can't see you any worse off at all.
Do this course: https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2017/12/1 ... -a-course/ Yeah really do it so you have to face & overcome those fears.
Then work on a specific set of material designed to be a real Waga Meets World record with YouTube videos of you, the lot. Where you need support, ask. And stay in-control of your fears enough to let it happen.
Wags you have some skill as a songwriter for sure. You can jump to the wrong conclusions a bit fast for sure (can't we all). Focus on showing the one and reducing the other. That is in line with your OP and Mr Beato's suggestion.
To show your skills, there is little point in being in Forums like this as a method of being picked up as the next Jimmy Webb. You need to prove that you can get real traction yourself. Neil D, Cat S, Lou R, Willie N, Eddie R... all started out being performers but got signed as songwriters. It was only once they were proven that they could step back over that fence (often by "covering" their own songs back).
Beato is right, stop seeing your limits as excuses: my titties aren't DD so I can't get hits on YouTube, I am 61 so I'm too old, I don't have the right plugins/players, I don't sing as good as Brad Delp did...
Reality is none of those names above could sing as good as Brad Dep, but they made it. Brad Delp made it, unmade it, remade it and then unmade himself. Silly duffer.
You have a lot more going for you than you give yourself credit for. I understand it can be hard to see & trust that but it is there. Do you have enough to "make it"? Who knows. But LOGIC does say that if you don't give it your best, you are guaranteed to fail; so going all-in can't see you any worse off at all.
Do this course: https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2017/12/1 ... -a-course/ Yeah really do it so you have to face & overcome those fears.
Then work on a specific set of material designed to be a real Waga Meets World record with YouTube videos of you, the lot. Where you need support, ask. And stay in-control of your fears enough to let it happen.
Benedict Roff-Marsh
http://www.benedictroffmarsh.com
http://www.benedictroffmarsh.com
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
Well let's see, shitty gigs. Hmm. Well, I can't sing. Not really. I can just about play an instrument. Certainly not well enough to play in front of people, which is why I'm trying to make it as a songwriter.Forgotten wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:46 amIsn't it up to you to determine that? Maybe you're not as hungry for success as other people who make it? Many of them start with really shitty gigs that they hate, or take on diversions into non-preferred work but they still get there.wagtunes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:43 amBut by all means, give me a rock bottom level of success that you would consider me being reasonable in accepting. I guarantee that I haven't even reached THAT level yet.Forgotten wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 amGot stats to prove that?wagtunes wrote:As heartbreaking as cancer is, for ANYBODY, there is a higher percentage of people cured of cancer than make it in the entertainment industry.
Maybe one of the reasons you see it as so difficult to make it in the industry is that you have a very specific definition of success, and you're not willing to consider any variation on that (as the majority of people in the entertainments industry do)?
So tell me, what shitty gigs do songwriters who aren't performers take? I guess I could go write songs for singers who are looking for songs for free. Oh wait, I still have to go FIND those singers. Of all the people who I've ever asked to do one of my songs, one person has. In fact, he asked ME if he could do it. He liked the song.
Here it is.
https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... er-version
That's it. In 42 years ONE person wanted to record one of my songs. Everybody else I've ever approached, not wanting to be rude, gave me the standard "It's not the kind of music I do."
I have one guy now who heard one of my songs who also wants to record it. In this case, it will be commercially. That's if it ever really gets that far. I'll believe it when I see it.
And if it happens, and the song gets released and there's at least a CHANCE that it could sell, even if it doesn't, that will be good enough for me.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to have a number one song and a Grammy but I'm trying to be realistic about this.
As far as my level of "seriousness" if I wasn't serious about this, I would have quit 42 years ago. It's not like I'm some snot nosed kid just starting out. I have done everything I could think of to have ANY level of success in this business. I have begged. I have paid people thousands of dollars.
I honestly don't know what else to do.
- KVRAF
- 4857 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
Benedict wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:53 am Back to a useful conversation. Do this course: https://benedict
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- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
I'd add one more thing:Benedict wrote:Beato is right, stop seeing your limits as excuses: my titties aren't DD so I can't get hits on YouTube, I am 61 so I'm too old, I don't have the right plugins/players, I don't sing as good as Brad Delp did...
Stop complaining about lack of success and do something about it. You listed a bunch of people you connected with, but did you really network with them? Did you take advantage of the connections as well as you could? Did you make borderline unreasonable requests for help from them? Did you use them to connect to additional people in the business? Did you put tapes in their hands then call them every few days to ask how things were going? Did you get yourself into studios and offices with them to drop tapes on desks of people who might listen to them?wagtunes wrote:Anyway, maybe starting this thread was a mistake to begin with. I was hoping for an "easy" answer
Most of the people who are successful worked damn hard and didn't complain about how much effort was involved - they just knew that if they stopped to feel sorry for themselves they wouldn't get anywhere.
If you put as much effort into being successful as you do into complaining you would increase your chances of being successful considerably.