Multiband saturation - where to set the crossover points?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
As the title says. When processing individual instruments with things like Saturn.
E.g. if I have an ostinato bassline (typical psytrance bass where the same note is repeated over and over) - does it make sense to set the crossover points at the note harmonics? E.g. if the bass plays A then it will be 55 Hz, 110 Hz, 220 Hz and so on. Or it's better to set the bands so that the harmonics would be somewhere in the center of the band? Or maybe the note harmonics are irrelevant at all and I should just do it by ear?
E.g. if I have an ostinato bassline (typical psytrance bass where the same note is repeated over and over) - does it make sense to set the crossover points at the note harmonics? E.g. if the bass plays A then it will be 55 Hz, 110 Hz, 220 Hz and so on. Or it's better to set the bands so that the harmonics would be somewhere in the center of the band? Or maybe the note harmonics are irrelevant at all and I should just do it by ear?
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
I once did as you do, but that's not a magical solution. Just set it by ear.
To make sound warmer, saturate low mids. You may also want to saturate top end to kill the spikes.
To make sound warmer, saturate low mids. You may also want to saturate top end to kill the spikes.
Last edited by DJ Warmonger on Mon May 20, 2019 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
Sure, it's not. Ofc, depending on what I want in each specific case i will be trying different saturation algos/levels/number of bands etc. It's just the matter of choosing the starting point.
I think the actual question might be what kind of artifacts does the crossover introduce, if it is extra harmonics maybe it would make sense to keep them in key with the song
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
Crossover frequency is attenuated in each band, so resullting harmonics will be actually reduced. You may want to do the opposite - keep fundamental in a middle of a band.
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
Thanks, that makes sense
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
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simon.a.billington simon.a.billington https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=341278
- KVRAF
- 2375 posts since 12 Nov, 2014
I often like to set crossover points on any multiband plugin somewhere near a point that sounds "least desirable in a sound. For example, around 350-400Hz can sound pretty terrible on drums and usually requires some removal. Around 120-180Hz for bass as another example.
The idea here is that if the crossover isn't linear phase by design there could be a bit of phase shifting/cancellation around the crossover point. By setting the crossover near a place that can do with a bit of dipping it could actually end up doing some of the work for you, while not harming the frequency content you actual desire. Just use your ears to fine-tune the exact place you want it to crossover. It will be the point where it sounds most pleasing.
Anyway, that's one approach. Don't feel constrained by it though.
The idea here is that if the crossover isn't linear phase by design there could be a bit of phase shifting/cancellation around the crossover point. By setting the crossover near a place that can do with a bit of dipping it could actually end up doing some of the work for you, while not harming the frequency content you actual desire. Just use your ears to fine-tune the exact place you want it to crossover. It will be the point where it sounds most pleasing.
Anyway, that's one approach. Don't feel constrained by it though.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
Thanks, Simon!
At the moment I just move the bands along and leave them where it sounds best to me, which doesn't actually seem to be related to harmonic frequencies at all.
At the moment I just move the bands along and leave them where it sounds best to me, which doesn't actually seem to be related to harmonic frequencies at all.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
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simon.a.billington simon.a.billington https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=341278
- KVRAF
- 2375 posts since 12 Nov, 2014
The reason why they sound the best, MIGHT be for the same reason I stated earlier because it WOULD sound better.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:46 am Thanks, Simon!
At the moment I just move the bands along and leave them where it sounds best to me, which doesn't actually seem to be related to harmonic frequencies at all.
That’s interesting, I wonder if it coincides.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
Probably yes, as you have mentioned the 120-180 Hz range for the bass, from my experience that's indeed the area where a crossover band can actually improve the sound and make the bass tighter and cleaner, if it hits the "right" frequency.simon.a.billington wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:55 pmThe reason why they sound the best, MIGHT be for the same reason I stated earlier because it WOULD sound better.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:46 am Thanks, Simon!
At the moment I just move the bands along and leave them where it sounds best to me, which doesn't actually seem to be related to harmonic frequencies at all.
That’s interesting, I wonder if it coincides.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
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- KVRist
- 490 posts since 3 Feb, 2018
I haven't made a study of it, but to me that sounds logical too: center the band on the frequency you want to bring out with a roll off towards the crossover points. At least if that's what you want to enhance..
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- KVRAF
- 2402 posts since 28 Sep, 2012
Head over to the FAW and Mastering the Mix websites. Check out the screenshots of those plugins.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 7:58 am As the title says. When processing individual instruments with things like Saturn.
E.g. if I have an ostinato bassline (typical psytrance bass where the same note is repeated over and over) - does it make sense to set the crossover points at the note harmonics? E.g. if the bass plays A then it will be 55 Hz, 110 Hz, 220 Hz and so on. Or it's better to set the bands so that the harmonics would be somewhere in the center of the band? Or maybe the note harmonics are irrelevant at all and I should just do it by ear?
For bass, start at 20hz and go all the way up to 320. Try making crossover points at 30, 65, 260.
If you want to go beyond bass, just extend the upper limit from 320 to 28k (the so called air band).
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
I'm looking at Mastering the Mix BASSROOM and they seem to have cross points at 0, 20,40,80,160, 320.perpetual3 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:29 pmHead over to the FAW and Mastering the Mix websites. Check out the screenshots of those plugins.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 7:58 am As the title says. When processing individual instruments with things like Saturn.
E.g. if I have an ostinato bassline (typical psytrance bass where the same note is repeated over and over) - does it make sense to set the crossover points at the note harmonics? E.g. if the bass plays A then it will be 55 Hz, 110 Hz, 220 Hz and so on. Or it's better to set the bands so that the harmonics would be somewhere in the center of the band? Or maybe the note harmonics are irrelevant at all and I should just do it by ear?
For bass, start at 20hz and go all the way up to 320. Try making crossover points at 30, 65, 260.
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- KVRAF
- 2402 posts since 28 Sep, 2012
Sublab as fewer cross points. I suggested starting there because it’s simpler.Butwug wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:40 amI'm looking at Mastering the Mix BASSROOM and they seem to have cross points at 0, 20,40,80,160, 320.perpetual3 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:29 pmHead over to the FAW and Mastering the Mix websites. Check out the screenshots of those plugins.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 7:58 am As the title says. When processing individual instruments with things like Saturn.
E.g. if I have an ostinato bassline (typical psytrance bass where the same note is repeated over and over) - does it make sense to set the crossover points at the note harmonics? E.g. if the bass plays A then it will be 55 Hz, 110 Hz, 220 Hz and so on. Or it's better to set the bands so that the harmonics would be somewhere in the center of the band? Or maybe the note harmonics are irrelevant at all and I should just do it by ear?
For bass, start at 20hz and go all the way up to 320. Try making crossover points at 30, 65, 260.
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simon.a.billington simon.a.billington https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=341278
- KVRAF
- 2375 posts since 12 Nov, 2014
Yeah that’s the idea. I first started doing this technique with Waves Vitamin, as it doesn’t have linear phase crossovers. At first it was by hear, it then I started to notice the correlations with the dips I was doing with the eq. Once I realised this it made tuning the crossovers quicker, as I’d naturally target areas I’d like to cut while listening out for it.recursive one wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:18 pmProbably yes, as you have mentioned the 120-180 Hz range for the bass, from my experience that's indeed the area where a crossover band can actually improve the sound and make the bass tighter and cleaner, if it hits the "right" frequency.simon.a.billington wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:55 pmThe reason why they sound the best, MIGHT be for the same reason I stated earlier because it WOULD sound better.recursive one wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:46 am Thanks, Simon!
At the moment I just move the bands along and leave them where it sounds best to me, which doesn't actually seem to be related to harmonic frequencies at all.
That’s interesting, I wonder if it coincides.
Since then I’ve just used the same trick whenever using non linear phase crossovers.
- KVRian
- 1311 posts since 7 Apr, 2019 from Canada
wide (3) until 250 diminishing until 650 thin until 5k, thickening to 18k, wide (sorta beyond) until diminishing again at 22. I prefer MS for my frequencies 250-6k so as to avoid phase, the rest conventional. for the treble interleaved, bass non.
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