Music Theory vs Chord VST

[telecode]

OP. i sort of look at this as helper tools. It no different than presets in VSTs. you can learn how to make a lush pad from scratch by reading all about it and trial and error, or you can look through presets and see how other people that know more about it than you do it, or you have find a preset you like, and save that and use that as a template and build upon it. it all depends what your goals are.

my view on the helper musical tools that come with programs is, i paid for the application, part of the functionaity of the application is the helper tool, who not use it if its there?

on the msachine forms there is a discussion on how to try to get the software to do what it can't with the existing chord pad functionality by using scaler. so thats another reason those tools are handy.

[jancivil]

BTW I have seen the YouTube promo. Drag and drop its suggestions - of block chords and even alternative voicings - to “create your own progressions”.

That’s precious. Voice-leading/part-writing, who cares?
What was your idea? Haven’t you one?

Thing is, the thing is touted as a tool for pros! It detects what key and suggests the obvious and you trial and error dragging ‘em around on the screen. No, the pro or real musician is going to fvcking play some chords.
In real time.
Like the actual painter has a palette and is into mixing colors herself, not looking at a color wheel for a clue.

So evidently there are people that would prefer all this clicking about to having a thought musically. No surprise nowadays, and if that’s what one wants to spend time doing, it’s no skin off of me at all.

But you want to argue this on the board which is specifically here so people may discuss and learn “music theory”. So, go argue against knowing things in one of the other boards and see what acceptance meets you there.

[jancivil]

Electronic music production using home computers seems to be an extension of other computer activities such as gaming, social media interaction, programming e.t.c. Hence...

Music is not an extension of video games or twitter. Or coding. So you’ve accidentally put your finger on a fundamental disconnect. The special plea, Electronic music. Aren’t you telling us it’s inferior? But wait, Morton Subotnick is electronic music, Mario Davidovsky is.
You need this term, and bedroom producer, all this for your point. But I am these things. Some people came to the DAW ways out of having ideas, it’s about music per se.

A child “forced” to prep for conservatory as an example for this sort of argument clearly skews to suit the argument. It’s obviously reaching for the extreme case to do it. “See, learning is not fun”. Music is a chore.
But this doesn’t really follow, prepping for conservatory as a pianist is not about creating music. The topic is should plugins do your thinking for you, is this as good as DIY. Like a cry for help.

I remember when I was 12, one Saturday I didn’t want to go to drum lessons, I wanted to play, I was a child after all. I regret it. By this time, in fact it WAS about prepping for conservatory. Rudimentary Scottisch drumming...
And later I would rather noodle around with blues licks than take classical guitar as seriously as Fred Nance thought was de rigeur. At 14. My mother was aspirational. I thought mystery Spanish music was cool, Fernando Sor Etudes not so much. At 18 I got deeply into it. That’s my level of maturity. But I knew people at conservatory who didn’t get away with that shit who practiced 8 hrs a day as a child, with more aspirational parents than mine, who wouldn’t dream of not being a musician, deeply in love with music.

You OTOH are not 14. If music is this much of a drag, to try and fob off this kind of bullshit argument in these terms... why not just try another activity.

[JerGoertz]

Use whatever works for you to make the music you want to make.

If using a chord-generating plugin gets you there, then use that. If they don't, then investigate learning some theory.

In any case, the bloviating and chest-thumping by the usual suspects here gets a bit tiresome. However, it *does* inspire me to get off the forum and actually make music, so there is that going for it...

[Michael L]

If using a chord-generating plugin gets you there, then use that. If they don't, then investigate learning some theory.

Turn it the other way 'round: if music theory doesn't help you make the music you want, then investigate learning some plugins.

[telecode]

Music is not an extension of video games or twitter.

I don't think "music" is but I think *some* "music production" in the era of the modern day bedroom music producer is. I think there are people who are making music with the software they are buying are doing it precisely because it allows them to be further attached and connected to their peers and social crowd. [1]

Some of the music featured on this channel is made by high schooler's. i know becase my own kid and his friends sometimes get a song on here. The incentive isn't monetary for them. The incentive is social. Who can do the better remix with the stems of a very popular guy on the twitch channel they hang out on.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ChillStepNation/videos


[1] please note my used of the word "some". This is not a broad claim that all music in this genre is made by 14 year olds.

[telecode]

Music is a chore.
But this doesn’t really follow, prepping for conservatory as a pianist is not about creating music.

Not being "prepped' to become Franz Liszt. He is being made to do it because we feel it will help him focus and concentrate better on Calculus and writing essays when he advances from secondary education system to college or university.

Incidentally, there "are" research papers done that have been written to "prove" this. Unfortunately, there are too many research papers on the subject of does making your child do music help him in college, and they don't agree with each other. The only thing you can do is use your own judgement. I personally think making a kid sit there and focus on reading and trying to play a piece of music properly for an hour will help him down the road. We shall see.

[JerGoertz]

If using a chord-generating plugin gets you there, then use that. If they don't, then investigate learning some theory.

Turn it the other way 'round: if music theory doesn't help you make the music you want, then investigate learning some plugins.

Sure, whichever direction you want to approach it from.

[Jojoboy]

My 2 cents, learn music theory as much as you can AND use all tools at your disposal to create cool sounding stuff. Be your best self and never stop developing your skills!

[currentsound]

Im just getting into learning music theory but I have a delema. I have come across a ton of VSTs that produce chords for you and I have a question. When applications like these become more popular what will this mean for those that want to learn/use music theory the old fashion way? Should I spend double or even tripple the time sitting learning music theory or should i resort to these chord generators and learn music theory by generating the chords that sound nice to me? I kind of feel like thats cheating

Technology has caused the need to feel instant enjoyment instead of learning to play and enjoy an instrument. This is a problem. I can play the piano fluently and I could think of nothing worse than having to click and program chords in. That seems so boring to me and super time consuming. It's just short term training for long term efficiency and enjoyment. You should definitely still learn an instrument such as the piano.

Learning chords is one thing, learning to play melodies that fit with them, counter melodies, harmonies and such is another. Anyone can make a boring song with block chords. Playing in all of your sounds, instruments and parts into a song is the enjoyable part of creating music. If you want to create music, you should understand it the best you can so that you can enjoy it.

Here is an example of me playing creating a song from scratch by literally playing in all the parts. Doesn't this look like more fun?

https://www.instagram.com/p/B52-7NED5Hw ... hare_sheet

From my observation, (and no, i can't prove it. there is no research paper. this is just one guys personal observation from one particular geographic region on this planet). , there is a divide between traditional music theory and education and training and music content creation or music production (which ever way you want to name it).

Electronic music production using home computers seems to be an extension of other computer activities such as gaming, social media interaction, programming e.t.c. Hence, a lot of computer savvy folks seem to naturally gravitate towards music production and learning DAWs and VSTs and synths -- its fun to do, its using computers, its a way to express yourself creatively and its' a lot more fun and exciting than writing a poem in Microsoft Word.

Traditional music lessons and music classes are a whole different ball game and there may not necessarily be a direct link between traditional music education and modern electronic music production/creation.

We force one of my kids to practice piano to pass conservatory of music level exams in our area. He also happens to do the FL Studio EDM chillstep music production thing with his friends in high school. The piano practice is a chore and he hates it. The FL Studio he likes to do because its fun and its on a computer. I see him sometimes working on FL and drawing notes in the midi editor and i keep asking -- why are you drawing notes when you can actually play those notes? The answer is, the creation of his electronic music and the way they collaborate seems to be a separate process from practicing and playing short classical piano pieces for a music exam. He prefers to use the midi editor and chord helpers because that's how he sees other more famous EDM artists do it on YT and what not.

I don't think music software companies will displace music teachers who teach students how to play instruments or learn traditional music theory. What they might do is displace book publishers of beginner music howto books . If your only goal is to quickly understand something musical, why would you waste $20 on a piano beginner book when you can get scaler and get results faster?

This is a good observation. I actually teach piano and beat-making/music production lessons myself in Los Angeles https://currentsound.com/services. I think that most piano teachers haven't moved on with the times and don't make their lessons fun enough. I teach pop music and well as improvisation and songwriting on the piano. Most kids seem genuinely keen to play and learn pop songs. I think the bigger underlying issue is that people lack motivation. They just want it to be fun all the time. They are perfectly happy to learn something if it is fun. As soon as it is hard, they don't want to do it. If given the choice, they will choose not to do it. If they were told they could choose to stay home or go to school, almost all kids would choose to stay home.

The issue these days is that previously to create any sort of electronic music you HAD to learn music theory and play the keyboard/piano because the DAW was effectively just a tape machine. These 'helper' tools are not really helping anyone but just discouraging those from learning by taking away the NEED to learn. Once you take the need away, anything that is too hard, kids just say, 'It's too hard' and give up. I think learning music theory and the piano is similar to learning martial arts in that it teaches discipline, confidence which leads to skills that most people would like to have but lack the discipline to obtain.

[Forgotten]

I think learning music theory and the piano is similar to learning martial arts in that it teaches discipline, confidence which leads to skills that most people would like to have but lack the discipline to obtain.

As someone who spends time improving both sets of skills, I have to say I agree. Discipline is very important to both and determines the rate at which you improve and grow.

[jancivil]

He prefers to use the midi editor and chord helpers because that's how he sees other more famous EDM artists do it on YT and what not.

My mother and hopefully y’all’s:
“If they jumped off a cliff, would you just follow?”

Lemmings do!


I use the MIDI editors all day long. False dilemma. Misunderstanding of concept. One may well get some clues from ‘Scaler’, again the real dichotomy is DIY vs avoidance. QED.

[Hink]

actually I was the one jumping off the cliff, several followed on the smaller ones



best pic I found yet (in the middle on the top is a rock set back, I was the only one of my friends who would go off that and these were all soldiers)...this place, bbq eateries and being an hour away from Austin and it's music scene from 78-81 were the only good things about texas for me

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Use whatever works for you to make the music you want to make.

If using a chord-generating plugin gets you there, then use that. If they don't, then investigate learning some theory.

In any case, the bloviating and chest-thumping by the usual suspects here gets a bit tiresome. However, it *does* inspire me to get off the forum and actually make music, so there is that going for it...

The single thing I am most grateful for in my entire musical life, is that when I was starting out, I did not have access to any real musical technology aside from my guitar and some manuscript paper. I didn't even know that samples, home-recording software, etc. existed. This was only in the mid-2000s, btw.

The issue here is that being good at something is actually directly-related to actually having to do things for yourself in the first place.

A chord generator is not going to choose good harmonies for your tune. Or, if it could, it's not teaching you WHY it made those choices. It's just going to give you something that sounds (maybe) good, and you'll just be left wondering why. Actually, more likely, you'll not even bother investigating why, which is even worse.

What most people refer to as "music theory" is actually more-appropriately described as the "craft" of composition.

I believe that there is nothing more important for a composer, or any musician really, to learn than the craft. Strong understanding or mastery of the craft allows you to be in total control of what you are doing at all times, because not only does it result in better music, it means that you can create whatever you want, with ease.

Chord generators, pre-made loops and phrases, etc. All of these things take away your control over your own music. You're not "doing" you are consuming.

It is this lack of doing via accessible technological crutches that has reduced standards for music (and indeed all art) over the last 50 years, and quite dramatically.

It takes a lot of effort to "do" stuff and become good. Most people, not being good, will happily encourage the lowering of standards so that they can play too. Today, one can get the job that John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith had without having to possess even a fraction of the ability and knowledge those men needed to just have an assistant position back in their day.

And that is exactly what has happened, thanks to technology (and a sizeable dose of post-modernist poison to boot). We don't do stuff anymore. Instead, we just consume; we buy stuff that we think will make our lives easier because it's "convenient".

The only way to fix this, is for us to aspire to be better. The way to do that, is to actually want to produce rather than simply consume.

Those who put in the effort to learn the craft and "do", will stand out and indeed above those who "don't".

[vurt]

not everyone is looking to stand out or be remembered.
some people just want to have a bit of fun and make some noise.

there are many paths to the destination, follow whichever suits you.