About standing in key
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 43 posts since 25 Mar, 2017
If my melody is in A#, every instruments need to be in A#?
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Key of A# major: A# B# Cx (double sharp) D# E# Fx Gx.
Good luck with that. (any seven-note scale is spelled by seven letter names)
In the most general terms you'll want every instrument in the same key but there actually may be instances where someone in the group exceeds that while, say, the chords stay normal. A blues lick, a chromaticism. Who knows, then the chords may follow to some extent. But you may not be ready for that if you believe your key is A# (unaware of the preference for Bb here). Key of A# is quite exotic.
Good luck with that. (any seven-note scale is spelled by seven letter names)
In the most general terms you'll want every instrument in the same key but there actually may be instances where someone in the group exceeds that while, say, the chords stay normal. A blues lick, a chromaticism. Who knows, then the chords may follow to some extent. But you may not be ready for that if you believe your key is A# (unaware of the preference for Bb here). Key of A# is quite exotic.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
A# Major is enharmonic of B Flat Major. Since B Flat Major only has to flats, and most of the sharps in A# Major are "artificial", you'd probably want to rewrite the piece in B Flat.
About the question. It depends on what you are talking about. There are transposing instruments, which play notes different than what is written. Those will not appear in a score in the same key (although the actually played notes are in the concert key).
Other than that, unless you are using polytonality, all the instruments will have to play in the same key, of course.
About the question. It depends on what you are talking about. There are transposing instruments, which play notes different than what is written. Those will not appear in a score in the same key (although the actually played notes are in the concert key).
Other than that, unless you are using polytonality, all the instruments will have to play in the same key, of course.
Last edited by fmr on Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)
-
Distorted Horizon Distorted Horizon https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=392076
- Banned
- 3882 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats
If I make a track in for example E Phrygian, most of stuff will stay in that scale. But if I hear that for example a lead needs to borrow a note outside that scale (some black key since in E Phrygian it's all whities), I borrow.
-
Distorted Horizon Distorted Horizon https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=392076
- Banned
- 3882 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats
And just as a notice, I laugh during that.
My evil laugh.
MUAHAHA.
My evil laugh.
MUAHAHA.
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
That is NOT changing the key that instrument is inDistorted Horizon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:54 pm If I make a track in for example E Phrygian, most of stuff will stay in that scale. But if I hear that for example a lead needs to borrow a note outside that scale (some black key since in E Phrygian it's all whities), I borrow.
THIS is using instruments in different keys (look at 1:11):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMfg1ccEgXM
Fernando (FMR)
-
Distorted Horizon Distorted Horizon https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=392076
- Banned
- 3882 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats
Misread/understood the question.. My bad
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Well, there's such a thing as playing outside, outside what is usual for the changes or outside the key.
I don't know where changes of key came in. So I like my answer, generally all the instruments are in the same key.
I did not go into transposing instruments for the OP who believes A# is the name for a regular key.
In effect this does not, of course mean a different key. At a certain point keys with a lot of sharps for an instrument built to be a Bb or Eb instrument is not the best practice with the exception being the instrumentalist as top drawer.
I don't know where changes of key came in. So I like my answer, generally all the instruments are in the same key.
I did not go into transposing instruments for the OP who believes A# is the name for a regular key.
In effect this does not, of course mean a different key. At a certain point keys with a lot of sharps for an instrument built to be a Bb or Eb instrument is not the best practice with the exception being the instrumentalist as top drawer.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
excuse me please excuse me please https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=427648
- KVRAF
- 1631 posts since 10 Oct, 2018
Polytonality is the trademark of Linkin Park. Or was it One Trick Pony?
-
- Banned
- 3946 posts since 25 Jan, 2009
Short answer:
1) In tonal music: YES: Insofar that you wrote in in A# and want it the way you wrote it. But NO: Nothing hinders you from experimenting with modulations, e.g. how does a melody written in C sound in F if you stick to the original notes? Like crap? Try another key or change a few notes when you modulate back and forth. Polytonality is already covered. Would scare the shit out of me even thinking in that direction.
2) Modal music (e.g. polyphonic counterpoint or modal Jazz). NO: Depending on style, you can stick to a root note here and let different melodies in different modes, e.g. aeolian, phrygian and dorian, interact to create harmonies more or less accidentally depending on style. But YES: In so far you are into tonal counterpoint, there will be more efforts to secure that interaction of voices result in favored chord progressions and thus you will have one leg in the modal approach and one in the tonal.
3) 12-Tone music: Well...seems like a NO-YOU-RATHER-SHOULDN'T, doesn't it? However, I am an allergic and have no clue, really. Please take over from here, Jan, or somebody who can elaborate.
1) In tonal music: YES: Insofar that you wrote in in A# and want it the way you wrote it. But NO: Nothing hinders you from experimenting with modulations, e.g. how does a melody written in C sound in F if you stick to the original notes? Like crap? Try another key or change a few notes when you modulate back and forth. Polytonality is already covered. Would scare the shit out of me even thinking in that direction.
2) Modal music (e.g. polyphonic counterpoint or modal Jazz). NO: Depending on style, you can stick to a root note here and let different melodies in different modes, e.g. aeolian, phrygian and dorian, interact to create harmonies more or less accidentally depending on style. But YES: In so far you are into tonal counterpoint, there will be more efforts to secure that interaction of voices result in favored chord progressions and thus you will have one leg in the modal approach and one in the tonal.
3) 12-Tone music: Well...seems like a NO-YOU-RATHER-SHOULDN'T, doesn't it? However, I am an allergic and have no clue, really. Please take over from here, Jan, or somebody who can elaborate.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Well, this is in all likelihood one of those threads where the OP has vacated so why not elaborate on 12-tone or anything.
First, the old modality (or as it follows, modality by definition) isn't in a key, and predates key really. So musica ficta is a reflection of a change of perspective as to what we call in the modern era 'tonic'. (However, these are shades, not changes of center.) And there are no instruments at this time so all the singers are on the same page. Literally.
So I think the original question is 'are there instruments that are in other keys at the same time' and yes, if it's literally polytonal (bitonal etc). And as I've tried to establish, eg., the sax player decided to go outside the changes/key area while the piano player is still laying the basis down. OR, you can go panmodal and as the soloist out front suddenly goes for a minor type of mode (or blues) against the major sort of climate in the piano/bass support where they stick to it, and everybody has the same 'tonic' in mind.
This really applies to the original post: if their melody is in a certain key, does everything else follow. Normally/generally this is a good start. If you don't know better you may have ugly clashes and basic mistakes if you're not cognizant of key. It's not always strictly true in the wide wide world of music.
12-tone has no key, the whole point is equality of 12 tones so that any of the 12 may be of utmost importance in the moment; and the construction of a row, 12 tone row (typical for Webern to think 2 six-tone cells in opposition and maybe we have more than one 2x6 to consider) first of all should pretty much achieve that. And then... and then it's hard to talk about without writing a book. So one's spelling is not a matter of key but a matter of other criteria. And these choices may be opaque to another person. Which may not stop someone from writing a book anyway.
First, the old modality (or as it follows, modality by definition) isn't in a key, and predates key really. So musica ficta is a reflection of a change of perspective as to what we call in the modern era 'tonic'. (However, these are shades, not changes of center.) And there are no instruments at this time so all the singers are on the same page. Literally.
So I think the original question is 'are there instruments that are in other keys at the same time' and yes, if it's literally polytonal (bitonal etc). And as I've tried to establish, eg., the sax player decided to go outside the changes/key area while the piano player is still laying the basis down. OR, you can go panmodal and as the soloist out front suddenly goes for a minor type of mode (or blues) against the major sort of climate in the piano/bass support where they stick to it, and everybody has the same 'tonic' in mind.
This really applies to the original post: if their melody is in a certain key, does everything else follow. Normally/generally this is a good start. If you don't know better you may have ugly clashes and basic mistakes if you're not cognizant of key. It's not always strictly true in the wide wide world of music.
12-tone has no key, the whole point is equality of 12 tones so that any of the 12 may be of utmost importance in the moment; and the construction of a row, 12 tone row (typical for Webern to think 2 six-tone cells in opposition and maybe we have more than one 2x6 to consider) first of all should pretty much achieve that. And then... and then it's hard to talk about without writing a book. So one's spelling is not a matter of key but a matter of other criteria. And these choices may be opaque to another person. Which may not stop someone from writing a book anyway.
-
- addled muppet weed
- 105977 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
sebastianlive wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:00 pm If my melody is in A#, every instruments need to be in A#?
why do you think you are in a#?
- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
Maybe he doesn't know flats?vurt wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:26 pmsebastianlive wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:00 pm If my melody is in A#, every instruments need to be in A#?
why do you think you are in a#?
Fernando (FMR)
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I think it's a 'good' question, if there is some answer coming, to indicate what notes - in the piano roll, which I think is clear - were considered to _be_ 'key of A#'.
A# minor would be A# B# C# D# E# F# G# unaltered, same as C# major, 7 sharps. A little more wieldy.
As to polytonality, check this out. This isn't your Charles Ives challenge or your Milhaud.
This simply stacks mixed fourths onto a simple line (Act II of this is the "Theme", but the theme is embedded right here in the "Prelude", just follow any voice in isolation):
A# minor would be A# B# C# D# E# F# G# unaltered, same as C# major, 7 sharps. A little more wieldy.
As to polytonality, check this out. This isn't your Charles Ives challenge or your Milhaud.
This simply stacks mixed fourths onto a simple line (Act II of this is the "Theme", but the theme is embedded right here in the "Prelude", just follow any voice in isolation):
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.