Spit, if it's true that my missing notes are being caused by programming notes at the same "millisecond," I don't understand why most of the notes do sound. I'm programming all the notes the same way.
The event list I posted above does show that the most atomic timings are TICKs in MBT (3rd column) and FRAMES in SMPTE (2nd column). And the list does show I'm programming notes on the same TICKs and FRAMEs.
I'm not a good enough keyboardist to play "Foreplay" at tempo. "Long Time", sure, no problem since they're just chords.
I was using Organized Trio first but wasn't happy with the organ presets. I then found VB3 and simply copied the notes from Organized. So far there seems to be only those 4 measures where I can't figure out a workaround. Not too bad. I didn't expect to hit snags so quickly !
GSI VB3-II
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Playing things on the same tick is not a problem because you're playing different notes. If it were the exact same note played on the same tick, that is not possible in MIDI (IIRC).
By the way this is indeed all MIDI, regardless even if you used the staff view. You can export that whole thing into a MIDI file that can be dropped in here and investigated.
By the way this is indeed all MIDI, regardless even if you used the staff view. You can export that whole thing into a MIDI file that can be dropped in here and investigated.
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- KVRAF
- 3231 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden
"the list does show I'm programming notes on the same TICKs and FRAMEs."
And my hunch, or hypothesis is that that may be the problem – programming note-ons so that they fall on the exact same time, since MIDI can only handle one note at the time, a couple of (inaudible) milliseconds apart.
What happens if you program the notes a few ticks looser, so that they don't fall on the exact same frame and tick? That won't make any audible difference at all.
Can you edit directly in the event list? Then it would be easy to separate the note-ons just a few (inaudible) milliseconds apart.
I hope that you figure it out – now it's Sandman time here in Sweden.
And my hunch, or hypothesis is that that may be the problem – programming note-ons so that they fall on the exact same time, since MIDI can only handle one note at the time, a couple of (inaudible) milliseconds apart.
What happens if you program the notes a few ticks looser, so that they don't fall on the exact same frame and tick? That won't make any audible difference at all.
Can you edit directly in the event list? Then it would be easy to separate the note-ons just a few (inaudible) milliseconds apart.
I hope that you figure it out – now it's Sandman time here in Sweden.
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 18 Jan, 2023
Spit - That's what I've been doing... for example, changing quarter notes (1:000) to be slightly less duration (0:950) which allows for notes in adjacent measures to play. But in this one 4-bar scenario that workaround isn't working. Now that I know it might be an issue when the SAME note in chords that span multiple measures might be the root cause - thanks Evil - , I'll investigate more. Thanks for the replies, Guys.
Spit - Yes, I can edit the Event list but I'm in fear of editing one event and inadvertently screwing up subsequent events. I'll play and see if something useful can be done that way. Thanks for the sug. Sweden !! G'Night !! I'm in New York USA.
Evil - I've looked around to see how I can generate a MIDI file from my programmed notes, but in Bandlab I don't see anything. Maybe there's a utility I can use to transform an Event list into a MIDI file?
Spit - Yes, I can edit the Event list but I'm in fear of editing one event and inadvertently screwing up subsequent events. I'll play and see if something useful can be done that way. Thanks for the sug. Sweden !! G'Night !! I'm in New York USA.
Evil - I've looked around to see how I can generate a MIDI file from my programmed notes, but in Bandlab I don't see anything. Maybe there's a utility I can use to transform an Event list into a MIDI file?
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
This is definitely not a problem. DAWs can execute this more accurately than MIDI with plugins (basically if the events come at the same tick they can definitely trigger on that same tick - the only difference is if you send this MIDI to an external hardware synth, then of course there will be jitter due to serial transfer).Spitfire31 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:41 pmAnd my hunch, or hypothesis is that that may be the problem – programming note-ons so that they fall on the exact same time, since MIDI can only handle one note at the time, a couple of (inaudible) milliseconds apart.
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
A simple google of "cakewalk bandlab export MIDI" results in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv8gagjFkic
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 18 Jan, 2023
Cool. I was looking just to save the one track, not the entire project. This forum is saying attaching a MID file is not allowed, so I 7-zipped it.
I don't know how one would import it and test-play the problem measures, but in case you try, it is measures 113-116 and in measures 115 and 116, the Bb5 doesn't play on my DAW when I start playing the 4 measures at measure 113.
I don't know how one would import it and test-play the problem measures, but in case you try, it is measures 113-116 and in measures 115 and 116, the Bb5 doesn't play on my DAW when I start playing the 4 measures at measure 113.
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
OK yeah we're dealing with overlapping MIDI events. Over here it's C4 that's not playing not Bb3. Here's why:
There's a C4 at 113.1.025 and lasts for 2 bars exactly, which means its note off event arrives at 115.1.025.
But there's also a C4 at 115.1.000 that also lasts for 2 bars exactly. Which means that a new note of the same pitc his started before the old one got its note off. If you make that C4 shorter so that it ends before the C4 at 115.1.000 then all is good.
So, it's not VB3-II's fault at all (although there are ways to combat overlapping MIDI events of the same pitch, this is also one of the possible and expected behaviors for an instrument).
There's a C4 at 113.1.025 and lasts for 2 bars exactly, which means its note off event arrives at 115.1.025.
But there's also a C4 at 115.1.000 that also lasts for 2 bars exactly. Which means that a new note of the same pitc his started before the old one got its note off. If you make that C4 shorter so that it ends before the C4 at 115.1.000 then all is good.
So, it's not VB3-II's fault at all (although there are ways to combat overlapping MIDI events of the same pitch, this is also one of the possible and expected behaviors for an instrument).
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 18 Jan, 2023
Now that's odd. I don't see a C4 at 115. As you say, C4 is the organ bass note that I start at 113 that lasts for 8 beats. But in 115, that note is supposed to change to a Bb3 (as if I were playing it that way with my left hand). I don't see a C4 in 115 in the Event list nor in staff view. I've attached a time-enlarged Event list so we can see no other C4 anywhere close.
I went ahead and shortened the 113 C4 to 7:950 and that Bb5 still does not sound. I would think it would be some note in the right hand that would need to be shortened and I did try doing that in recent days to no avail.
Evil - Can you post something that illustrates the C4 in 115?
EDIT: I just noticed that the same missing-note event happens in 156-159. In that scenario the C4 notes are programmed differently (half notes instead of whole). What I did discover is that if I DELETE the C6 in 157 (equivalent to 114 in previous scenario except that it's a tied note in 114), THEN the Bb5 does sound. Interesting. OR...if I make the C6 in 156 (equivalent to 113) the length of 7:500, the Bb5 sounds.
Also, I see in 157 and again in 220 (same scenario) that I left a C6 half note when I should have deleted it when I made C6 in 157 and 219 tied whole notes. Although deleting that C6 half note made no difference, again in 219, when I make the C6 tied whole note a length of 7:500, the Bb5 in 221 sounds. So it is C6 that is impacting Bb5 ??? I don't get it. Anyway, thank you, Evil, for helping me nail down this Bb mystery.
I went ahead and shortened the 113 C4 to 7:950 and that Bb5 still does not sound. I would think it would be some note in the right hand that would need to be shortened and I did try doing that in recent days to no avail.
Evil - Can you post something that illustrates the C4 in 115?
EDIT: I just noticed that the same missing-note event happens in 156-159. In that scenario the C4 notes are programmed differently (half notes instead of whole). What I did discover is that if I DELETE the C6 in 157 (equivalent to 114 in previous scenario except that it's a tied note in 114), THEN the Bb5 does sound. Interesting. OR...if I make the C6 in 156 (equivalent to 113) the length of 7:500, the Bb5 sounds.
Also, I see in 157 and again in 220 (same scenario) that I left a C6 half note when I should have deleted it when I made C6 in 157 and 219 tied whole notes. Although deleting that C6 half note made no difference, again in 219, when I make the C6 tied whole note a length of 7:500, the Bb5 in 221 sounds. So it is C6 that is impacting Bb5 ??? I don't get it. Anyway, thank you, Evil, for helping me nail down this Bb mystery.
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
I just imported your MIDI in Reaper and that's what I saw. I guess CbB does some handling regarding overlapping note events then.
This is what I see in Reaper:
(Oh also note - I use the C3 as middle C nomenclature. Not sure what the default is for CbB - it might be C5 is middle C, in which case my C4 is your C6, and that then matches up.)
This is what I see in Reaper:
(Oh also note - I use the C3 as middle C nomenclature. Not sure what the default is for CbB - it might be C5 is middle C, in which case my C4 is your C6, and that then matches up.)
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 18 Jan, 2023
C6 is middle C in CbB Staff view. That messes me up when I want to work in Piano Roll view in CbB which uses decimal number assignments to notes instead of octave indicators (depending on what I'm doing and maybe this is a peculiarity to the drum kit I use, Addictive Drums 2). For example, the kick drum in Piano Roll view is 36 and assigned to C1. But 36 in MIDI is C3. So when I'm trying to use decimal numbers to find a specific drum, I'm always having to calculate that numbers are 2 octaves off. There is a drum kit help popup window that maps numbers to MIDI numbers, but geez, why can't all these soft synth developers stick to a standard ?!
Anyway, it's all good. Now to get down to the real job - mixing ! Thanks again, Evil, for your help. Hoping your recording is fun and productive... Thorne
PS - I guess someone can use my "Foreplay" organ programming in a live scenario. I did many years ago when I programmed the organ part on my Korg M1 ! It was fun having the band play to my programming. The lead singer was making like she was playing the organ part when all she had to do was press START.
Anyway, it's all good. Now to get down to the real job - mixing ! Thanks again, Evil, for your help. Hoping your recording is fun and productive... Thorne
PS - I guess someone can use my "Foreplay" organ programming in a live scenario. I did many years ago when I programmed the organ part on my Korg M1 ! It was fun having the band play to my programming. The lead singer was making like she was playing the organ part when all she had to do was press START.
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Are you REALLY sure it's C6? There are only 3 "standards": C3, C4 and C5. Cakewalk historically used C5 (just like FL Studio).
A440 should be A5 in piano roll - not A6.
(By the way there is an option to adjust the octave offset: http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?p ... lp=0x22B06)
A440 should be A5 in piano roll - not A6.
(By the way there is an option to adjust the octave offset: http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?p ... lp=0x22B06)
Because there IS no standard. Vendors never agreed how to number the octaves.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 18 Jan, 2023
I was wrong. Middle C is C5 in CbB Staff view. Yes, A440 is A5.
That question about a standard was rhetorical. After 36+ years working in the computer industry, Boy, do I know how different standards abound. And it's no wonder when an industry grows so big that getting everyone together to agree to a standard is a monumental task. Betamax tapes ALMOST made it. <grin>
That "Base octave for pitches" setting you reference... I'll have to see if soft synth plugins respect the setting.
That question about a standard was rhetorical. After 36+ years working in the computer industry, Boy, do I know how different standards abound. And it's no wonder when an industry grows so big that getting everyone together to agree to a standard is a monumental task. Betamax tapes ALMOST made it. <grin>
That "Base octave for pitches" setting you reference... I'll have to see if soft synth plugins respect the setting.
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- KVRAF
- 23103 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Softsynths won't respect it, but piano roll and everything else in Cakewalk itself will.
