VST3 - known issues (Updated Jan 2019)

[antithesist]

Guillermo Navarrete:

Dropped by u-he, goofhead!

(y'know, like this forum is about?)

We are tired of platform issues. After two years of doing pretty much nothing else, we have dropped VST3, and we were recently about to freeze AAX development due to woes with the PACE.

We need some time to work creatively.

[Guillermo Navarrete]

Hello antithesist,

AAAAaaaa ok now I see... A 3rd party developer has dropped VST3, got it.

Thank you for clarifying.

Best regards,
GN

[Compyfox]

What's the current official policy as of today?

Products that already had VST3 versions will continue to be provided with VST3 versions, although the VST3 plugins will not be installed by default (user-selectable option) and are considered "experimental". New products (Bazille, Presswerk, Hive) will not have VST3 versions for the time being, that's why VST3 is not (or will not be) listed in the spec box on their respective product pages.

I think in this case, it's important to note that VST3 versions in Wavelab are also a huge issue (still!). So are certain plugins in Cubase, to a certain extend in Studio One as well (what works in Studio One, doesn't necessarily work in Cubase and visa versa). The parameter forwarding/flush that Urs was mentioning at the beginning of this thread just just one of the issues. Dare I even say "tip of the iceberg".


As somebody that tested Satin VST3 for stability and "usability" in Wavelab, I can say that it's working to a certain extend. But I wouldn't rely on it. Other companies are not so lucky however.

I personally beta test for several companies that have severe issues with the VST3 standard/specs. Which even goes so far that VST3 plugins are not rendering in Wavelab for several years now. These companies also tried to get in touch with Steinberg to sort issues out. Some found the issue, others gave up and pulled the VST3 version at the final minute. I wait for the day, where I can cross off another release off my beta list, that doesn't have the infamous "audio forward bug".


Sadly, VST3 is mandatory if you want to pull off side chaining in CubEndo (compressors mainly) without workarounds, or if you want access to advanced synth features (Note Expression v2), while other hosts can still use VST2 versions. But it's completely understandable why U-HE is opting out of the VST3 game - it's just too much extra work to keep the software bug-free and working for everybody.

At this point, and from my beta experiences, I also say "better a stable VST2 version than no plugin/synth and issues with VST3".

There is only hope that Steinberg is keeping their backwards compatibility. Else it would be a shot in their own foot.

[zvenx]

are you speaking about plugins that come with Cubase?
If so please name one!!!!!!!!!!

I on the other hand use vst3 in Cubendo daily, by many developers, DMG Audio, FabFilter, Voxengo,izoptope, bx, softube, vengence sound, Steinberg, Waves etc, without any problems.....
rsp

[Compyfox]

I'm talking about the so called "3rd party" plugins.
Something U-HE's creations would count to.

No need to go crazy.

[zvenx]

I named several third party ones that work daily for myself and many others.
I for one, have just gotten so tired of your infamous Steinberg stuff is broken almost daily rants, that I am sure some people will read and think vst3 is completely broken as so many of the other steinberg stuff according to you.
rsp

[EvilDragon]

The thing is, stuff IS broken with VST3, otherwise devs wouldn't grow tired of issues and drop VST3 support.

[zvenx]

I don't agree with your logic at all.
VST3 is change.
Like when we moved to 64bit, many developers resisted.

Many developers (see above) don't have issues with vst3. I was speaking to one just two weeks ago, who recently added vst3, he had zero issues with it. Zero.....

That some have issues don't mean that something is broken in vst3.

Hell I can't play Piano like Herbie Hancock, doesn't lead to the only conclusion that something must be wrong with my piano.

rsp

[AdmiralQuality]

Hell I can't play Piano like Herbie Hancock, doesn't lead to the only conclusion that something must be wrong with my piano.

rsp

But what if you were Herbie Hancock and, after paying good money for a piano upgrade, found you suddenly couldn't play it anymore? That's a far better analogy.

And trust me, if U-He are having trouble with VST3, then EVERYBODY are. Sure, perhaps you know some developer who claims it was a breeze, but I'll bet their product has a minimum of functionality and/or isn't required to duplicate features it used to have in a previous VST2.4 incarnation.

[zvenx]

If everybody was, there would be none.......or close to none, that isn't the case.
Not because you or U-he or whomever have given up on it now....(by the way I remember voxengo was very much in your camp, now I see he has almost completely finished his vst3 port), means it is broken.

Explain Waves to me? They make both instruments and effects, yet their vst3 works great?
Explain ikmultimedia to me with their ST3?

rsp

[AdmiralQuality]

If everybody was, there would be none.......or close to none, that isn't the case.

Given the size of the industry, it is "close to none".

I don't want to hijack Urs' thread. I just wanted to throw in that this particular other developer absolutely concurs with the observations and conclusions U-He have reached on this. Just throwing in my $0.02.

Not because you or U-he or whomever have given up on it now....(by the way I remember voxengo was very much in your camp, now I see he has almost completely finished his vst3 port), means it is broken.

Explain Waves to me? They make both instruments and effects, yet their vst3 works great?
Explain ikmultimedia to me with their ST3?

rsp

And sorry, can't "explain" products I don't own licenses of. But again, for simple things like straight effects, that usually don't require stuff like MIDI input or complex program management systems, they may have found a safe working subset of the supposed functionality that they can stay within. But again, I can't speak for Urs and won't get sucked into a big debate on his board. I'm just chiming in with an "us too".

[Compyfox]

I for one, have just gotten so tired of your infamous Steinberg stuff is broken almost daily rants, that I am sure some people will read and think vst3 is completely broken as so many of the other steinberg stuff according to you.
rsp

Tell that to:
- Slate Digital (VST3 still doesn't work in Wavelab)
- Eiosis
- Klanghelm (he recently fixed his VST3 issues in WL)
- Tokyo Dawn Labs (pulled SlickEQ VST3 last minute prior to release, both Cubase and WL didn't want to work)
- Admiral Quality (mentioned issues MONTHS before anyone else)
- U-HE (I found a bug in SATIN on pre-launch that was not known until then, was fixed within hours)
- etc

And to the many developers in beta testing that fix and issue for Cubase, and then reintroduce one for StudioOne, while on the other hand they fix an issue for StudioOne, and another resurfaces for Cubase. While the other host'S are like "okay, cool - I just chill here and do my thing".


You might be lucky with your plugin selection.
You might not even be running into issues, if you're a beta tester. Especially in the more-forgiving Cubase (where the VST3 Audio Forward Bug is a non-issue).

But as EvilDragon summed it up pretty much:

The thing is, stuff IS broken with VST3, otherwise devs wouldn't grow tired of issues and drop VST3 support.

Then again, you're right. People will only read this:

...some people will read and think vst3 is completely broken as so many of the other steinberg stuff according to you.

This is something I observe on KVR for quite a while now.
The lack of reading properly - and defending the position "I don't have these issues, you're wrong".



I hand the mic back to Urs and his team.
Everything else -> PM!

[zvenx]

If I was a beta tester, I would not only see on a daily basis, my issues, but other issues others experience.

I stand by my words.


Since there is no host that requires VST3, there is no real impetus for many developers to get cracking on vst3, I am sure if one day that changes and for an 'important' host, you will find this 'broken vst3' will suddenly have a lot more plugins.
rsp

[Compyfox]

If I was a beta tester, I would not only see on a daily basis, my issues, but other issues others experience.

So if you're not a beta tester that heavily tests VST3, how can you judge those that "know" of the VST3 problems?
Unless I'm misunderstanding your post.

I stand by my words.

Since there is no host that requires VST3, there is no real impetus for many developers to get cracking on vst3, I am sure if one day that changes and for an 'important' host, you will find this 'broken vst3' will suddenly have a lot more plugins.
rsp

CubEndo requires VST3 for Side Chaining and NoteExpession 2, Wavelab is slowly going a similar route. Else, yes... all other hosts can use side chaining with VST2 and don't have focus on NoteExpression v2, so no need to push VST3 "yet".

If all companies would drop VST2 (which I hope won't be the case), maybe there is more movement to fix all issues with the VST3 implementation within the hosts rather than rolling it off on to the developers. But thankfully enough - the VST technology is backwards compatible.


Doesn't mean there are not issues with both VST3 and AAX (see this very thread! and one of the AAX rants by Urs). And VST3 is longer around than AAX.

[arakula]

VST3 is change.

Unnecessary, unwanted change. Until now, practically everything that's new in VST3 (except for the potential separation between processor and editor to let them run on different machines, which nobody uses, not even Steinberg) could have been easily added to VST2. VST3 is not an evolutionary step, it throws away the complete VST1/2 concept and replaces it with another.

I don't want to say that the new concept is necessarily bad - in quite some respects, it's technically superior. In others, it is ... not so good, to put it politely.

Like when we moved to 64bit, many developers resisted.

True. But understandable - if you didn't design your product from ground up to be as agnostic about pointer sizes as possible, but maybe "cut some corners", it wasn't exactly easy to get it working in 64 bit. Still - that's far easier than to switch from a VST2 to VST3 codebase.

Many developers (see above) don't have issues with vst3. I was speaking to one just two weeks ago, who recently added vst3, he had zero issues with it. Zero.....

Here, your own logic is a bit fuzzy. "Many developers" vs. "I was speaking to one". You can't tell whether the others had difficulties or not.

That some have issues don't mean that something is broken in vst3.

Yes it does. You just happen to know products which either found a good way to work around the cracks in the VST3 foundation, or don't implement certain parts of VST3 at all.