Phasing: when it seems solved but it is just a fake

[metalheart]

it's a shreddage 2 problem.with the same tracks,the same velocities,the same effects,the same impulses,the same vst amps,the same eqs,but with V Metal\Prominy sc guitar and Mor 2 I haven't any phasing sound.

You can't be sure, just because other people didn't have the problem, and by the way, at least with MOR 1, using the same guitars and the same notes, this produced phasing. It's soon for a verdict

i wanted to speak for myself.I used Mor 2 and Prominy libraries but I haven't this phasing sound even with the same tracks and effects.I've quadtracked too,no phasing sound.Maybe with Shreddage 2 it's harder to achieve a good sound.
Nonetheless,to avoid all doubt,i have to point it out,that this is in my opinion the best and the most realistic guitar library out there.

[Vintage73]

I had some phasing issues, too, but I took care of them with Amplitube by changing the phase on my cabinets. I'm not sure if you have that option on other amp sims.

[metalheart]

I had some phasing issues, too, but I took care of them with Amplitube by changing the phase on my cabinets. I'm not sure if you have that option on other amp sims.

yes,I've Amplitube and other amp sims.Usually I use 4 Shreddage instances,2 for rhythm and 2 for leads,combining them with different amp sim patches\impulses,but with Shreddage 2 I've always this pestering phasing sound,thing that fades if I replace the guitar library with another one.

[IcKz]

Some news while I'm waiting news by mail from D&Z:)

I don't have any kind of phasing, flanger or whatelse laser fx IF:

1. I open just one Shreddage II instance (actually instrument/shreddageII.nki) with loaded two instruments

2. I create just one midi track where 1 guitar will play as two the same notes

3. I open two channels in Kontakt, 1/2 and 3/4 one per instrument

4. I open the same channels on Nuendo/Cubase mixer

At this point pan control are handle by mixer and I can change amp and cabs in channel 3/4 also if I have one midi track.

Of course this put some limit on the free composition...


PS: Metalheart can you try u too?:D

[metalheart]

Some news while I'm waiting news by mail from D&Z:)

I don't have any kind of phasing, flanger or whatelse laser fx IF:

1. I open just one Shreddage II instance (actually instrument/shreddageII.nki) with loaded two instruments

2. I create just one midi track where 1 guitar will play as two the same notes

3. I open two channels in Kontakt, 1/2 and 3/4 one per instrument

4. I open the same channels on Nuendo/Cubase mixer

At this point pan control are handle by mixer and I can change amp and cabs in channel 3/4 also if I have one midi track.

Of course this put some limit on the free composition...


PS: Metalheart can you try u too?:D

i'm not sure if i've understood your suggestions,however if I have 2 leads and 2 guitars for the rhythm I want to use 4 Shreddage instances,one for each guitar without any limitation.

[IcKz]

i'm not sure if i've understood your suggestions,however if I have 2 leads and 2 guitars for the rhythm I want to use 4 Shreddage instances,one for each guitar without any limitation.

Yes I would too, but if I can't neither in the classic dual track mixing...

I use to have 2 instances of Shreddage 2, one per guitar and both DT1. Since the last news, I started to use 2 instances with DT1 and DT2 but the improving was not so remarkable.

Now after the first email answer from Doug Perry, about the argument, this is the situation:

- A muted second guitar, so basically a guitar that was usually a third or a fifth up or down the other guitar.

- Now I have 1 MIDI track, 1 Guitar that play as 2 guitars.

- 1 instance with loaded 2 instruments.nki, one per guitar:
st.1 midi channel A1 output 1/2
st.2 midi channel A2 output 3/4

- On Nuendo mixer I opened two channels to get the volume and pan control

- Since HPSE has been designed for Shreddage 2, I thought could be a good idea use it to reduce phasing, maybe could help. Just a try:
st.1 Peavey 3120 impulse JSX 4x12 bmx 3(b)
st.2 Peavey 3120 Vaveking 4x12 atx4050 (a)

With this setup, it seems guitars can be panned L100 and R100 without phasing even if in some part I have doubts, anyway if I try to pan them at L70 and R70 a phaser fx come out.

I also tried to use the same impluse for both, but the phaser fx was there also with a panning L100-R100.

Then just to see what happened, I tried to keep pan on C. With both solution, same impulses or differents impulse, there was a storm of phasing.

By the way, changing impulse, amp and cab on St.2:

st.1 Peavey 3120 impulse JSX 4x12 bmx 3(b)
st.1 Poulin Legion, Poulin LeCab and 3 different impulses from Good Cab impulse

In this way it's possibile have a L100-R100 pan without phasing. At this point I tried to move pan at L70-R70, the amount of phasing in this way is really poor respect the previous set up but it remains in particular when Shreddage plays Pinch squeals notes and +69 velocity notes.

I tried a quad track pan, but well, results was simply horrible.

It's a frustrating situation, especially because I repeat, is not a problem that happens to everyone.

The guys who have successfully tested a quad mix, they could also cooperate by making their contribution to the discussion...

[bigjerome]

Delay the right or left Kontakt or your amp sim/impulse in your DAW by 15ms - 20ms and you should be good to go. One or the other, not both.

[IcKz]

Delay the right or left Kontakt or your amp sim/impulse in your DAW by 15ms - 20ms and you should be good to go. One or the other, not both.

should be so easy? if is, you have a couple of paid beers here in germany:P

should it works for dual track pan and quad track pan?

always keeping different amp,cab and impulses?

keeping 1 instance of kontakt with inside two shreddage II.nki loaded and 1 midi track or loading 2 instances of kontatk with one shreddage II.nki loaded per instance and so 2 Midi tracks?

[bigjerome]

What I do is:
a: create one midi track assigned midi channel 1 going into one instance of Kontakt
b: two mono outputs from Kontakt, 1L and 2R, back to the DAW
c: load a DT patch and assign each midi channel 1
d: pan each part of the DT patch L and R of outputs 1 & 2 of Kontakt.

Each output feeds it's own amp sim followed by an ir.
I use the same amp sim model and settings for both but I use two different ir's (usually same speaker but different mic).
I delay the right amp sim/ir output by 15ms - 20ms, depending on the tempo of the song.

I write the gtr part on the single midi track and once I'm happy with it, I'll clone the midi track, assign the clone to midi channel 2 and reassign the dt'd part of the Kontakt patch to midi channel 2.
I'll insert a humanize midi effect on both midi tracks which changes the timing and length of all notes on both tracks and viola! Once you humanize the midi tracks, adjust the delay if it sounds a little sluggish but that really depends on the tempo.

Reproduce what I suggested for quad tracked but I would use one amp sim for 100% panned pair and other amp settings or other amp sim for the 70% panned pair. You can still use one instance of Kontakt to keep CPU usage done (which you'll need for 4 amp sims and 4 ir's)

Again, that's what I do and it works great for me (incidentally, I really like S-Gear as an amp sim with built in ir loader and it does have the capacity to delay the output on it's output for the above scenario)

[IcKz]

Sorry bigjerome, I was writing this post while you was writing your, now I gonna read it:P



Ok, first bad news:

- also if on other vst libraries that use old versions of kontakt there was the delay command, here is not, or I dunno, I'll be dumb but I can't find it, and it's a pity.

- HPSE doesn't has a decent Delay command:
Pre-delay on ACS R2 it's useless
RE-Lay 2 doesn't start from 0ms but from 50ms

So your brilliant intent bigjerome (since I just read how it works phasing and understood a bit prrr) can't have a valid result. I tried to increase delay on RE-Lay 2 until 60ms-70ms, I get a result but honestly there is too much mmm reverb for my taste.

Now good news:

- Since HPSE delay was a fail, on the other guitar I had the combo amp/cab Lepoulin, in this case Legion/LeCab2.
On LeCab2 you can increase delay until a max of 5ms, enough. I loeaded three impulses by GuitarHack and increased delay on all of them until 5ms.

Tomorrow I'll listen again, but as first listen seem to me that for a dual track mixing the delay is finally gone, even with the pan C on both guitars there was no delay. Tomorrow, back from work, I'll try again.

-Quad track, yes it seems that this solution solve also the phasing problems with 4 guitars.

With the following configuration, the listening with four guitars was horrendous because of the phasing storm:

- 1 MIDI track. So the same notes and velocities for 4 guitars.
- 2 kontakt with inside loaded 2 Shreddage II.nki DT1/DT2
- Gtr 1 HPSE 3120/Re-Lay2 L100
- Gtr 2 LePoulin Legion/LeCab 2 with 3 impulses L70
- Gtr 3 HPSE 3120 different impulse from the first 3120 R100
- Gtr 4 TSE X50/LeCab2 3 impulses but different from Gtr2 R70

But adding delay in this way:

- Gtr 1 delay at 68ms L100
- Gtr 2 no delay L70
- Gtr 3 no delay R100
- Gtr 4 delay of 5ms R70

compared to before, it's really really better

I also tried this solution:

- Gtr 1 delay at 68ms L100
- Gtr 2 no delay L70
- Gtr 3 delay at 68ms R100
- Gtr 4 no delay R70

but the result was a fail

With this solution instead:

- Gtr 1 no delay L100
- Gtr 2 delay at 5ms L70
- Gtr 3 no delay R100
- Gtr 4 delay at 5ms R70

there was a phasing just between Gtr 1 and Gtr3 the two guitars with HPSE 3120

In this way Quad track works almost perfectly:

- Gtr 1 HPSE 3120/Re-Lay2 delay 68ms L100
- Gtr 2 LePoulin Legion/LeCab 2 with 3 impulses/no delay/ L70
- Gtr 3 HPSE Valveking different impulse from the first 3120/no delay/ R100
- Gtr 4 TSE X50/LeCab2 3 impulses but different from Gtr2/delay 5ms R70

Tomorrow I'll listen again

[IcKz]

What I do is:
a: create one midi track assigned midi channel 1 going into one instance of Kontakt
b: two mono outputs from Kontakt, 1L and 2R, back to the DAW
c: load a DT patch and assign each midi channel 1
d: pan each part of the DT patch L and R of outputs 1 & 2 of Kontakt.

Each output feeds it's own amp sim followed by an ir.
I use the same amp sim model and settings for both but I use two different ir's (usually same speaker but different mic).
I delay the right amp sim/ir output by 15ms - 20ms, depending on the tempo of the song.

I write the gtr part on the single midi track and once I'm happy with it, I'll clone the midi track, assign the clone to midi channel 2 and reassign the dt'd part of the Kontakt patch to midi channel 2

So basically it this that u have?

I'll insert a humanize midi effect on both midi tracks which changes the timing and length of all notes on both tracks and viola!

is it a function or are you saying "I pass the rest of the day editing velocities on each note" ?:D

Reproduce what I suggested for quad tracked but I would use one amp sim for 100% panned pair and other amp settings or other amp sim for the 70% panned pair. You can still use one instance of Kontakt to keep CPU usage done (which you'll need for 4 amp sims and 4 ir's)

if the shreddage config is that one in the image, in my case it doesn't works, it doeasn't with two midi track and different notes and velocities, it doesn't with two midi track and the same notes and velocities. I need to have 4 amps/cab and different impulses on each one

[bigjerome]

I use Frank's Midi Plug-Ins ( http://www.midi-plugins.de ) which has a humanize mfx and Sonar, the DAW that I use, also has a humanize mfx. They make the changes for you, destructive or non-destructive.

The posted pics should work except that I use ST1 for both of the instruments.

Use a simple delay, set the delay to 15ms - 20ms, feedback to 0% and wet/dry to 100% wet.

[bigjerome]

Here's the page for the humanize mfx from Frank:
http://www.midi-plugins.de/mplug/mplug-hum.html

[Dean Aka Nekro]

You can grab Voxengo's free sound delay plugin for precise track delays (It has nothing you would want in a purely 'correctional' utility) here -
http://www.voxengo.com/product/sounddelay/ (PC & MAC, VST & AU, 32 & 64 bit, Its very powerful, Although I've only used it on multiple mic'd cabs, It might be worth a try?). I am not a user of virtual/sampled guitar libraries but I can imagine it being both very, very difficult to create even when having the power of KONTAKT 5 available and equally also use

FWIW As a guitar player primarily myself I spend easily the majority of my time on my tracks programing the drums...Go figure

Hope that helps and with ReValver you can IIRC load in VST plugins which is a very handy feature

All the best to all as always

Dean

[IcKz]

I use Frank's Midi Plug-Ins ( http://www.midi-plugins.de ) which has a humanize mfx and Sonar, the DAW that I use, also has a humanize mfx. They make the changes for you, destructive or non-destructive..

Thank you I'll check it after work!

Use a simple delay, set the delay to 15ms - 20ms, feedback to 0% and wet/dry to 100% wet.

Can you find here the delay are you talking about? 'cause on nuendo I don't have the usual classic easy delay:P