Dm7- Fmaj
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 28 posts since 3 Mar, 2007 from denver
I need to know a few things about these 2 chords. (Dm7+Fmaj)I need to know what scale(s) it goes with and what other chords go with it. Thanks for your help.
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- KVRAF
- 2376 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
They're both variations on F major actually; Dm7 is an alternative voicing of F6 (F A C D). And D minor is the relative minor to F major.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key
What chords go with it? Whatever sounds good to you. Do you know the 3 and 4 chord tricks?
Do you know the circle of fifths?
http://files.meetup.com/227762/Circle%2 ... 0wheel.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key
What chords go with it? Whatever sounds good to you. Do you know the 3 and 4 chord tricks?
Do you know the circle of fifths?
http://files.meetup.com/227762/Circle%2 ... 0wheel.gif
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- KVRAF
- 6254 posts since 25 Mar, 2004
I like to keep the white key theme going with these and when I'm screwing around with them, I've got Em7 and Cmaj7 somewhere in the mix as well. For fun, throw in Ebm7 as a transitional and you've got a nice night at the club.sjm wrote:They're both variations on F major actually; Dm7 is an alternative voicing of F6 (F A C D). And D minor is the relative minor to F major.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key
What chords go with it? Whatever sounds good to you. Do you know the 3 and 4 chord tricks?
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...
So many plugins, so little time...
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- KVRAF
- 10239 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
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- KVRAF
- 2376 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
I'd probably substitute Ddim to play off the Bb7, assuming we're playing in F. Or throw in an A major, especially if we're starting from D minor.BERFAB wrote: I like to keep the white key theme going with these and when I'm screwing around with them, I've got Em7 and Cmaj7 somewhere in the mix as well. For fun, throw in Ebm7 as a transitional and you've got a nice night at the club.
But I think this kind of underlines the inherent problem in trying to answer the OP's question. Given the root of Fmajor (or D minor), you can play just about what the hell you want. I can't help thinking what the OP really needs is a better understanding of scales and chord progressions (in abstract terms).
I mean, you CAN play just play F major B major and you've got a song (Beck's motherf**ker, anyone; and the Beatles also make good use of this change)... But it's probably not the way to go most of the time
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- KVRAF
- 6254 posts since 25 Mar, 2004
Really? If I could get hits like Beck or the Beatles, I'd go for it ALL THE TIME!sjm wrote:
I mean, you CAN play just play F major B major and you've got a song (Beck's motherf**ker, anyone; and the Beatles also make good use of this change)... But it's probably not the way to go most of the time
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...
So many plugins, so little time...
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- KVRian
- 858 posts since 14 Sep, 2004
All of what's been said is true. In addition, in the key of C major, you'll often find the Dm7 used briefly to move into an F or D tonality but still avoiding a full F chord that might, if fully realized, suggest that the line should move too strongly towards the tonic. The Beatles use it in "Oh Darlin'." (In other words, it gives the melody some time by not rushing the movement towards the tonic, since in pop music, the tonic so often follows the subdominant.)
Remember, too, that chords are usually used in popular music to provide a backing for a sung melody. Often the relative minor of a chord is chosen just to give some variety to the sound. That's part of what's going on, I think, in the choice of Dm7 in "Oh, Darlin'" when an F major would have still harmonized with notes in the melody. This device also has the effect of making the F more emphatic when it later enters. (Not something you always want, though.) In a C major blues, following this principle, you could use Dm7 for the first time the F would usually come in the 2nd bar, and then return to C, and then either stay with the Dm7 as a substitute for F throughout or move to the full F7. Notice that here you usually wouldn't want to do the opposite--go from C to F to C and then to a Dm7 for the later F, since it softens the sound so much that it seems anticlimactic.
At other times, though, where you're not wanting to build as fast as a blues builds, you might go from the tonic to F and then back to C and then to Dm7. Notice here the effect is a little ambiguous, since the Dm7 has notes that are in all 3 of the strong chords--it contains the tonic for the tonic chord, the fifth of the fifth, and the tonic of the fourth: that's why it sounds like mud if played in the wrong place or in some inversions in some sequences: it holds on to some of the notes from the previous chord and includes some notes from both the subdominant and the dominant. There can be the sense that it neither moves enough nor stays in the same place enough. (Is that a good description of "mud?") On the other hand, the shared notes can make for good voice leading if the next chord resolves the uncertainty or moves the notes in a direction that promises resolution.
The relative minor also gives movement to the sound if the melody is staying on the same few notes for a long time--it lets you avoid having a static sound in the background. In Amazing Grace, you can see this more simple use of the device (simpler partly because it uses the relative minor of the tonic instead of the relative minor of the 4th). Given the key of C major: The move to Am (the relative minor) near the end, means the singer sings some of the final notes against a minor tonality before the resolution. The chord could just stay as C major, and the C's and E's would still technically fit. But its tedious, since the melody is played against the same backing for too long, and there would less of a sense of moving towards a resolution.
Remember, too, that chords are usually used in popular music to provide a backing for a sung melody. Often the relative minor of a chord is chosen just to give some variety to the sound. That's part of what's going on, I think, in the choice of Dm7 in "Oh, Darlin'" when an F major would have still harmonized with notes in the melody. This device also has the effect of making the F more emphatic when it later enters. (Not something you always want, though.) In a C major blues, following this principle, you could use Dm7 for the first time the F would usually come in the 2nd bar, and then return to C, and then either stay with the Dm7 as a substitute for F throughout or move to the full F7. Notice that here you usually wouldn't want to do the opposite--go from C to F to C and then to a Dm7 for the later F, since it softens the sound so much that it seems anticlimactic.
At other times, though, where you're not wanting to build as fast as a blues builds, you might go from the tonic to F and then back to C and then to Dm7. Notice here the effect is a little ambiguous, since the Dm7 has notes that are in all 3 of the strong chords--it contains the tonic for the tonic chord, the fifth of the fifth, and the tonic of the fourth: that's why it sounds like mud if played in the wrong place or in some inversions in some sequences: it holds on to some of the notes from the previous chord and includes some notes from both the subdominant and the dominant. There can be the sense that it neither moves enough nor stays in the same place enough. (Is that a good description of "mud?") On the other hand, the shared notes can make for good voice leading if the next chord resolves the uncertainty or moves the notes in a direction that promises resolution.
The relative minor also gives movement to the sound if the melody is staying on the same few notes for a long time--it lets you avoid having a static sound in the background. In Amazing Grace, you can see this more simple use of the device (simpler partly because it uses the relative minor of the tonic instead of the relative minor of the 4th). Given the key of C major: The move to Am (the relative minor) near the end, means the singer sings some of the final notes against a minor tonality before the resolution. The chord could just stay as C major, and the C's and E's would still technically fit. But its tedious, since the melody is played against the same backing for too long, and there would less of a sense of moving towards a resolution.
Last edited by Jake Jackson on Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 59 posts since 4 Mar, 2007
The other chords that work with dm/F are g-minor and C7, which together give you those progressions using the minor second/minor sixth, like the old knee-trembler "In the Still of the Night" and songs like Octopus's Garden, as previously mentioned.bubbleeconomy wrote:I need to know a few things about these 2 chords. (Dm7+Fmaj)I need to know what scale(s) it goes with and what other chords go with it. Thanks for your help.
The scale is an F-major scale, which has a key sig of 1 flat (B-flat).
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- KVRAF
- 13109 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
In general, the two chords would be treated either as the sixth and first degree of F major scale or as the second and fourth degree of the C major scale. Hence you may want to experiment with all the chords building onto these scales.
If you play them one after each other, I think that F major (which is the same as D natural minor, btw) would probably suit them a bit better, in case you go for the C major scale option, it'd make both of them sound a tad more "open" or "disconnected" or whatever terms you may find for that particular sound (which would result in the D being treated as "dorian", the F as "lydian").
It is of course also possible to mix both approaches - whatever floats your boat.
I'd guess that from a traditional POV, you should probably start to treat them as two chords taken from the F major scale/key and experiment with the other chords to be found in that key. Bb major (perhaps with a major 7th added, and as an alternative: Gm, probably with a 7th added) and C7 would be your best choices for a start, but obviously the 2 remaining chords of the key (A min and E min b5) could also make sense. Ah well, and you may as well experiment with the possible "extensions" or "options" (such as 9ths, 11ths and 13ths).
So, while the question could be answered more or less in a simple fashion, there's still a world to explore...
If you play them one after each other, I think that F major (which is the same as D natural minor, btw) would probably suit them a bit better, in case you go for the C major scale option, it'd make both of them sound a tad more "open" or "disconnected" or whatever terms you may find for that particular sound (which would result in the D being treated as "dorian", the F as "lydian").
It is of course also possible to mix both approaches - whatever floats your boat.
I'd guess that from a traditional POV, you should probably start to treat them as two chords taken from the F major scale/key and experiment with the other chords to be found in that key. Bb major (perhaps with a major 7th added, and as an alternative: Gm, probably with a 7th added) and C7 would be your best choices for a start, but obviously the 2 remaining chords of the key (A min and E min b5) could also make sense. Ah well, and you may as well experiment with the possible "extensions" or "options" (such as 9ths, 11ths and 13ths).
So, while the question could be answered more or less in a simple fashion, there's still a world to explore...
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 2376 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
Don't forget that just as those two chords work in the scale of C major, they also work in Bb major. Which brings us back to the circle of fifths and the three chord trick (C/F/Bb).
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- KVRian
- 858 posts since 14 Sep, 2004
A popular rock way of using the Dm7 in C major is to keep the fifth of the chord on top, so the chord is voiced CDFA. Try the simple sequence below (C F Dm7) letting that upper fifth ring out. You might like the fifth as the lowest note in the right hand, instead. Regardless, the fifth often seems to ground this chord, keeping it from sounding washed out. Not something to use in every case, of course, but keeping that 5th on the top or bottom is always something to try if it doesn't muddy the melody.
(The left hand bass note does a lot towards defining the Dm7 in the context of the key of C major, so getting the volume of that note right is important. Loud, often. Slam it at first, if you need to be sure the voicing and the movement in the bass is clear.)
So at middle C, with a descending bass, it's:
CEG \C
CFA \F
CDFA \D
That same fifth can then resolve sweetly a full step down to the G for a G chord. (The Gsus falls naturally under the right hand fingers, here--CDG.) Or lift off the D in the right hand and move the bass down to the next lowest F and you're back to the F chord, ready to resolve to C. It can go a lot of other places, too.
The C major pentatonic scale, with the F added now and then, goes well over any of these sequences.
(The left hand bass note does a lot towards defining the Dm7 in the context of the key of C major, so getting the volume of that note right is important. Loud, often. Slam it at first, if you need to be sure the voicing and the movement in the bass is clear.)
So at middle C, with a descending bass, it's:
CEG \C
CFA \F
CDFA \D
That same fifth can then resolve sweetly a full step down to the G for a G chord. (The Gsus falls naturally under the right hand fingers, here--CDG.) Or lift off the D in the right hand and move the bass down to the next lowest F and you're back to the F chord, ready to resolve to C. It can go a lot of other places, too.
The C major pentatonic scale, with the F added now and then, goes well over any of these sequences.
Last edited by Jake Jackson on Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRian
- 858 posts since 14 Sep, 2004
Ran across another use of Dm7-F in what I think could be called rock piano: in "Angel," the very popular Sarah McLachlan song some people know as "In the Arms of an Angel":
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BDkcJ-62uuY
I think she's playing it in D, but let's assume the key is C. The A section or verse is a Dm7 to F or F maj7 sequence and a C Gsus/A G sequence. The chorus then avoids the Dm7 entirely, staying with C, Em, F, and G. In other words, the Dm7 isn't used anywhere near the C, and it isn't used as a substitute chord for the F. It's more a matter of using it in the verse early to stay away from the tonic chord, as a way to enter the song with and sustain tension, which can then be released in the later part of the verse and in the chorus. Fits the lyrics, which are about needing to find some release.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BDkcJ-62uuY
I think she's playing it in D, but let's assume the key is C. The A section or verse is a Dm7 to F or F maj7 sequence and a C Gsus/A G sequence. The chorus then avoids the Dm7 entirely, staying with C, Em, F, and G. In other words, the Dm7 isn't used anywhere near the C, and it isn't used as a substitute chord for the F. It's more a matter of using it in the verse early to stay away from the tonic chord, as a way to enter the song with and sustain tension, which can then be released in the later part of the verse and in the chorus. Fits the lyrics, which are about needing to find some release.
Last edited by Jake Jackson on Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 6254 posts since 25 Mar, 2004
Reading back over this thread, I'm reminded why they call it THEORY.
All these ideas over what seems like a deceptively simple progression really shows that creativity has no bounds.
-B
All these ideas over what seems like a deceptively simple progression really shows that creativity has no bounds.
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...
So many plugins, so little time...
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
All the following scales will work to a greater or lesser degree (depending upon your tolerance for dissonance)...
C Major
A Harmonic Minor
F Major
C melodic Minor
Bb Major
D Half-Whole Diminished
Bb Harmonic Major
Listed in approximate order of most consonant to most dissonant.
C Major
A Harmonic Minor
F Major
C melodic Minor
Bb Major
D Half-Whole Diminished
Bb Harmonic Major
Listed in approximate order of most consonant to most dissonant.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- 4907 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
I wrote a kid's song about going on a road trip using these chords and basically 'white-key' 5th Dimension kind of a vibe.
Written, recorded, mixed, posted in about 3 hours or so thanks to Jamstix.
It's casiocore to start out - don't worry, it busts out some cooler stuff in the middle of the song.
Remember it's a kid's song.
http://www.fawm.org/songs.php?id=724
Written, recorded, mixed, posted in about 3 hours or so thanks to Jamstix.
It's casiocore to start out - don't worry, it busts out some cooler stuff in the middle of the song.
Remember it's a kid's song.
http://www.fawm.org/songs.php?id=724
