Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1
- KVRian
- 1476 posts since 25 Sep, 2011
Great stuff pdxindy!. I'm glad those aren't enough perks for me. Because in Ableton: 1. I live in arrangement view almost permanently; 2. Same. If I ever want to use session view or perform live, I don't mind if it's only 1 tab key away and focus on it, I don't think I've ever mixed both workflows; 3/4. Already happy with freeze and flatten, or only freeze and dragging a piece of audio to an audio track if I desire to keep the MIDI; 5. If I want to use something from another project, I go to the browser/user library and drag stuff to my current project. Not the same, but works fine in my case. And I like to focus on one thing at a time regardless; 6. Don't care about CLAP because none of the plugins use that format anyway. Nowadays I use very few and selected plugins, 98% of the time Ableton Live 12 Suite does it for me. And if not, I fill some gaps with Max for Live, Reason Rack Plugin, DUNE 3.6 and a few other VST3 plugins.
However, I'd be happy if Ableton implemented plugin sandboxing, but as an additional safety measure. Ableton doesn't ever crash on me because of plugins misbehaving. The rare case when it did, Ableton did recover successfully in a non critical, non live, studio scenario. So, such a feature wouldn't be life-changing either, just a nice to have.
But of course, YMMV. All that only applies to me.
However, I'd be happy if Ableton implemented plugin sandboxing, but as an additional safety measure. Ableton doesn't ever crash on me because of plugins misbehaving. The rare case when it did, Ableton did recover successfully in a non critical, non live, studio scenario. So, such a feature wouldn't be life-changing either, just a nice to have.
But of course, YMMV. All that only applies to me.
Last edited by Yorrrrrr on Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 11278 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales
I couldn’t disagree more about Live 12s instruments, they are the best of any DAW I use and are fully functional instruments without having to add extra modulation sources. As I said, Bitwig is a tinkerers toolbox, the modular of DAWs…but to me Live is faster and just gets music produced, the fx like glue, drum bus, meld etc I prefer over VSTs…Lives instruments with Push 3 are a genuine hardware like experience, nothing else comes close for integration.
I also don’t have crashes with plugins in Live (is that even a thing anymore, I don’t get crashes in Studio One either?)
Audio editing better with Bitwig but midi editing now better with Live (and it has midi comping). I find similar sounds in Live drum racks etc fantastic (and the browser generally now better than Bitwig). Personally I prefer the way Live looks and the simple 2 screen approach, but that’s just personal preference.
I also don’t have crashes with plugins in Live (is that even a thing anymore, I don’t get crashes in Studio One either?)
Audio editing better with Bitwig but midi editing now better with Live (and it has midi comping). I find similar sounds in Live drum racks etc fantastic (and the browser generally now better than Bitwig). Personally I prefer the way Live looks and the simple 2 screen approach, but that’s just personal preference.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!
- KVRian
- 1476 posts since 25 Sep, 2011
Yes, to me Ableton looks neat, organized and simple. While Bitwig looks dark, over saturated and bloated. Like a Halloween themed Fisher Price. You can’t customize it much either. But looks are indeed subjective and there will be people who like that.
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- KVRist
- 201 posts since 26 Sep, 2017 from Berlin
3ptguitarist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:13 pm Besides the modular features, what does Bitwig Studio have that Ableton Live 12 Suite doesn't have that improves production workflow?
- better device chain interface
- better midi editor
- better arrangment editor
- I love the color theme
- plugin sandboxing
- performance 200% of ableton on my windows with WASAPI
- CLAP plugin support
- free OS Choice (win, mac, linux)
- like the userinterface much more
- better smart browser
The only plus thing on ableton; it has some better sounding stock plugins
but hey, if you like ableton more then stay with it. For me, I'll never ever install ableton again, not if it become free to download.
- KVRAF
- 23594 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
I don't think anyone mentioned touchscreens already - Bitwig has a dedicated touch-optimized mode, while Live doesn't even support multitouch yet. So that is one potentially huge difference.
"Preamps have literally one job: when you turn up the gain, it gets louder." Jamcat, talking about presmp-emulation plugins.
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- KVRAF
- 11278 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales
Your saying Bitwig is better than than Live 12 but also you havent tried Live 12?ckoe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:32 am3ptguitarist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:13 pm Besides the modular features, what does Bitwig Studio have that Ableton Live 12 Suite doesn't have that improves production workflow?
I love to do modular music with Bitwig and breaking the rules of classic arrangement and sample stuff. No other DAW comes in that area of making electronic music in my opinion. For me Bitwig is the next gen ableton.
- better device chain interface
- better midi editor
- better arrangment editor
- I love the color theme
- plugin sandboxing
- performance 200% of ableton on my windows with WASAPI
- CLAP plugin support
- free OS Choice (win, mac, linux)
- like the userinterface much more
- better smart browser
The only plus thing on ableton; it has some better sounding stock plugins
but hey, if you like ableton more then stay with it. For me, I'll never ever install ableton again, not if it become free to download.
I have both- Bitwig since V1- Live currently has a better browser (similar sound search is a game changer- pre-sets and samples with hot swap) and far better midi editing in 12, midi comping, midi capture, automated midi pattern generation (like built in scaler, cord generator, riffer, drum pattern generator etc). It also has global and track scales, fold to scales and scales that even work on the filters etc. Audio to midi is also very useful for butting things back to midi to work with.
Also, I get slightly better performance with Live 12 than Bitwig on Win 11, was the other way around with Live 11- 12 seems more efficient. I don't have crashes in Live or Bitwig (and I don't use the sandboxing in Bitwig as I am stable without it)
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!
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- KVRist
- 201 posts since 26 Sep, 2017 from Berlin
No, I'm saying it's for my purpose much better. Yes, I was beta tester on Ableton 12 and then I decided to switch back to Bitwig. No new 12 Features give me so much freedom and joy as Bitwig does.SLiC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:07 pmYour saying Bitwig is better than than Live 12 but also you havent tried Live 12?ckoe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:32 am3ptguitarist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:13 pm Besides the modular features, what does Bitwig Studio have that Ableton Live 12 Suite doesn't have that improves production workflow?
I love to do modular music with Bitwig and breaking the rules of classic arrangement and sample stuff. No other DAW comes in that area of making electronic music in my opinion. For me Bitwig is the next gen ableton.
- better device chain interface
- better midi editor
- better arrangment editor
- I love the color theme
- plugin sandboxing
- performance 200% of ableton on my windows with WASAPI
- CLAP plugin support
- free OS Choice (win, mac, linux)
- like the userinterface much more
- better smart browser
The only plus thing on ableton; it has some better sounding stock plugins
but hey, if you like ableton more then stay with it. For me, I'll never ever install ableton again, not if it become free to download.
- KVRAF
- 25630 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
I didn't bother trying Live 12 and yes, for me, Bitwig is still better... by a big margin.SLiC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:07 pm Your saying Bitwig is better than than Live 12 but also you havent tried Live 12?
I have both- Bitwig since V1- Live currently has a better browser (similar sound search is a game changer- pre-sets and samples with hot swap) and far better midi editing in 12, midi comping, midi capture, automated midi pattern generation (like built in scaler, cord generator, riffer, drum pattern generator etc). It also has global and track scales, fold to scales and scales that even work on the filters etc. Audio to midi is also very useful for butting things back to midi to work with.
You couldn't pay me to switch back to the Live browser. Bitwig's popup browser is so freakin fast. 80% of the time I know what I want to put on a track and in those cases, it is literally 3-6 seconds and I don't need mouse movements/clicks or even to look at the screen.
If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Regarding the new midi pattern generation in Live. I've had plugins for quite a while that fulfill those tasks quite well so it's already covered for me in Bitwig.
The scale stuff would have some utility for me, but in Bitwig I can already make a project where all the tracks follow the chords/scales of one track. That makes it easy to add off notes in places or change scales during the composition... even on the fly.
If you or anyone else prefer Live, have at it. There is no one right answer. For me, Bitwig is freakin amazing!
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- KVRist
- 226 posts since 24 Oct, 2015
If I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
- KVRAF
- 25630 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
Dalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:14 pmIf I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Has that always been there?
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- KVRist
- 226 posts since 24 Oct, 2015
At least as long as I’ve used Live since version 9. Coming from Logic one of my favorite features was how integrated and fast the browser waspdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:43 pmDalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:14 pmIf I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Has that always been there?
Last edited by Dalle on Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 6327 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
For years at least. I will say owning both, that both soft brained developers decided that presets and other choices besides VST should be on top half the time, which makes both of your instant thing, not a reality here. The routine is the same in both, with a slight advantage to Live.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:43 pmDalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:14 pmIf I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Has that always been there?
In Bitwig if you haven't already selected the tracks, you have to do that, then 'b' works to pull up the pop up browser, then you generally have to use the arrow keys to navigate to the actual VST over the presets and loops it presents.
In Live anywhere you are you hit command f and it puts you in the search field, then you navigate past the presets and loops it presents to get to the VST / AU.
It's not every time, depends on how close the name of the plugin is to the presets and loops, but the fact that both developers decided that content is the priority over plugins is a PITA, and I haven't figured out any way to change the behavior in either DAW. I acknowledge this is a minor complaint compared to other DAWs having even more steps, but I would like control over the order that they present results.
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- KVRist
- 226 posts since 24 Oct, 2015
Plugins are always listed as first results for me in Livemachinesworking wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:54 pmFor years at least. I will say owning both, that both soft brained developers decided that presets and other choices besides VST should be on top half the time, which makes both of your instant thing, not a reality here. The routine is the same in both, with a slight advantage to Live.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:43 pmDalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:14 pmIf I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Has that always been there?
In Bitwig if you haven't already selected the tracks, you have to do that, then 'b' works to pull up the pop up browser, then you generally have to use the arrow keys to navigate to the actual VST over the presets and loops it presents.
In Live anywhere you are you hit command f and it puts you in the search field, then you navigate past the presets and loops it presents to get to the VST / AU.
It's not every time, depends on how close the name of the plugin is to the presets and loops, but the fact that both developers decided that content is the priority over plugins is a PITA, and I haven't figured out any way to change the behavior in either DAW. I acknowledge this is a minor complaint compared to other DAWs having even more steps, but I would like control over the order that they present results.
- KVRAF
- 25630 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
I would have liked to have known that when I was still using Live!Dalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:46 pmAt least as long as I’ve used Live since version 9. Coming from Logic one of my favorite features was how integrated and fast the browser waspdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:43 pmDalle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:14 pmIf I want to do that in Live I press Command+F, type “hi” and double tap enter.pdxindy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:01 pm If I want to add Hive, I open the popup, type "hi", down arrow, enter, done... Hive is in the track before I would get my mouse over to the browser in Live. It's muscle memory at this point and takes no mental focus unlike looking at the screen and moving the mouse and making multiple clicks.
Has that always been there?
So I assume Cmd-F highlights the search field. Once you type "hi" and it selects Hive, does down arrow work to select other results beginning with "hi"?
In the Bitwig popup browser, I can type "hi", down arrow to select Hive, then right arrow goes to Hive's presets and clears and highlights the search field so I can start a new search for a specific Hive preset.