What is the attraction with logic ?

[machinesworking]

The one big argument, against this, is they must surely be aware that would not please a significant percentage of their desktop users, and perhaps this would be enough to dissuade them from, if not going that path, at least not making subscriptions the exclusive way to use the product? It's going to be interesting to see where they go, and I hope you're right that they'll stick with the present way of doing things for the desktop..

The main argument is that they offer a professional product and they might be aware of what has happened to Pro Tools once the subscription thing was implemented. So many people I know using studios have dropped it. In the case of Logic that means a possible switch to PC. I mean only the future can tell, it's of course possible, but I doubt it. The amount of money generated by the tiny Logic audience going subscription isn't going to counter the amount of people switching to another DAW and no longer using Mac.

You can come back and prove me wrong in a couple years of course, but I just don't see it. They aren't hemorrhaging, and they probably have market share numbers for what Logic does for them in terms of Mac sales etc.

[apoclypse]

The one big argument, against this, is they must surely be aware that would not please a significant percentage of their desktop users, and perhaps this would be enough to dissuade them from, if not going that path, at least not making subscriptions the exclusive way to use the product? It's going to be interesting to see where they go, and I hope you're right that they'll stick with the present way of doing things for the desktop..

The main argument is that they offer a professional product and they might be aware of what has happened to Pro Tools once the subscription thing was implemented. So many people I know using studios have dropped it. In the case of Logic that means a possible switch to PC. I mean only the future can tell, it's of course possible, but I doubt it. The amount of money generated by the tiny Logic audience going subscription isn't going to counter the amount of people switching to another DAW and no longer using Mac.

You can come back and prove me wrong in a couple years of course, but I just don't see it. They aren't hemorrhaging, and they probably have market share numbers for what Logic does for them in terms of Mac sales etc.

Another thing to point out is that on the iPad and iOS in general it's rare to find software that costs $199. It makes sense to go sub on iPad since it's less likely they could sell Logic Pro on the device for $199, but they can sell a sub for far cheaper. On the desktop $199 is the norm for a lot of software, especially in the DAW space. It makes less sense on the desktop space to charge a sub, especially when LP and FCP are selling points for Apple hardware and a driver for macOS upgrades as well, as sometime moving to the latest version of Logic requires the latest version of macOS.

[Trensharo]

I can buy a 14" laptop with a good i7 or Ryzen 9 CPU an RTX4070 and a 144-165Hz QHD display and spec the RAM and Storage down to bare minimum. It will be multiple hundreds cheaper than any comparable MacBook Pro at comparable screen size

Any? Because, if you’ve been comparing things to Apple’s prices, you’re going to have to recalibrate. You can get substantially lower prices elsewhere. Throughout the later half of 2023 new 16 inch M1 MBP’s could regularly be had for £/$1300.

I've also got some bad news about IPS panels. Did you know companies like LG grade those panels, and the customers paying the most (whether through volume or individual price) generally get given the higher grade panels? This translates to things like better grey screen uniformity. IE Things which aren’t going to be apparent from a spec comparison. Though Apple won’t be issue free here, they have to worry more about keeping the likes of Photoshop users happy. AKA Users who will be more likely to notice bad uniformity and return a laptop because of it. Thus they tend to do better than the PC laptop average.

It’s also rare for other laptop IPS displays to have an equivalent performing polariser (off axis glow) to the one Apple uses, and it’s also unlikely to maintain better accuracy at higher colour gamuts (Apple do a really good job of factory calibration) here etc. In short, there are actually some reasons (beyond Muh Apple marketing) why Apple sometimes get away with charging more premium prices. I didn’t even mention speakers - which are, generally, garbage on a majority of PC laptops. Downward firing speakers should be illegal!

A newer PC Laptop in that price range is going to sh*t all over a base M1 Pro 16" MBP. Lol. Seriously. Stop it.

In 2024 I would never spend that kind of money on that machine, which you will only fine at those prices if pre-owned. Good Luck with that SSD/Reliability lottery.

Please move this whole discussion elsewhere and don't f**k this thread up with your Pc vs Mac stuff. I really appreciate to read about users here actually talk about Logic Pro.

Pretty sure I am not the one who bought it up. I will block you so that I don't have to see you crying about it, though.

[Trensharo]

The one big argument, against this, is they must surely be aware that would not please a significant percentage of their desktop users, and perhaps this would be enough to dissuade them from, if not going that path, at least not making subscriptions the exclusive way to use the product? It's going to be interesting to see where they go, and I hope you're right that they'll stick with the present way of doing things for the desktop..

The main argument is that they offer a professional product and they might be aware of what has happened to Pro Tools once the subscription thing was implemented. So many people I know using studios have dropped it. In the case of Logic that means a possible switch to PC. I mean only the future can tell, it's of course possible, but I doubt it. The amount of money generated by the tiny Logic audience going subscription isn't going to counter the amount of people switching to another DAW and no longer using Mac.

You can come back and prove me wrong in a couple years of course, but I just don't see it. They aren't hemorrhaging, and they probably have market share numbers for what Logic does for them in terms of Mac sales etc.

Another thing to point out is that on the iPad and iOS in general it's rare to find software that costs $199. It makes sense to go sub on iPad since it's less likely they could sell Logic Pro on the device for $199, but they can sell a sub for far cheaper. On the desktop $199 is the norm for a lot of software, especially in the DAW space. It makes less sense on the desktop space to charge a sub, especially when LP and FCP are selling points for Apple hardware and a driver for macOS upgrades as well, as sometime moving to the latest version of Logic requires the latest version of macOS.

Lots of iPad products cost a pretty penny. The strategy for pricing is just different, and they get it over a protracted period since people are more likely to just keep a subscription running (forget or ignore it) since the per month cost is lower. They're also more likely to subscribe on impulse.

I own an email client and notetaking app that I bought for $10-20 [each] that are now $3.99+ a month subscriptions, and they went subscription over 2-3 years ago. That $250 over 3 years, vs. a $30 purchase. That's the price of a Microsoft Office perpetual license that includes Outlook and OneNote that I could have purchased in 2016 and still be running to this day.

I used to run quite a few subscriptions but after going over the numbers, I have dropped back to using stock apps on a lot of platforms because the apps don't offer enough to make the extra cost worth it. Plus... Inflation, etc. I'd rather buy more food than have an extra function in a few apps, Lol.

[Trensharo]

What you’re claiming DID NOT happen here, with the latest Falcon. There’s 2 default locations for libraries without changing preferences. UVI wouldn’t know if you’ve placed libraries into either directory. But it’s all meaningless anyway, because it doesn’t leave the “500MB file” behind as you claimed! The fact that you ran with the initial speculation, whilst ignoring I found otherwise, all comes across as very disingenuous.There’s no need for you to “email the dev” because their current uninstaller works fine!

1. If it doesn't it's cause it was fixed, very recently. Because it happened less than 2 weeks ago.

2. There are two default locations. One in ~/Libraries and one in /Libraries: UVI Portal isntalled to the location in /Libraries by default. The other location is simply there in case you put content there, so the products will search that directory. This is similar to how Presonus adds C:\Users\Public\Documents\Studio One\Sound Sets as one of the default sound set locations. Nothing is installed there by default. It defaults to the user documents folder for that content, unless you change it in the Installation Dialog. UVI Portal is the same, unless you change the default installation directory, all of that stuff goes to the UVISoundBanks folder in /Library. Not sure what the point of that is, anyways.

Also, we know you're exaggerating and the uninstaller did do this - forever - because another user didn't even need me to tell him what file it was. He already knew it, because he saw this happen as well

Nothing I stated was speculation.

None of these programs are to be fully trusted, especially without manually verifying. Anyone who does IS, more likely than not, going to run into issues at some point. A simplified approach, of keeping applications and settings in their own directories and files, makes for a more robust way of doing things. Many of the ways Windows does things was born from an era of limitations and shared resources, and kept around because of legacy compatibility. No matter how much you might want to convince yourself otherwise, it’s ultimately easier to achieve a 100% clean uninstall on Mac OS, largely because there’s no registry to deal with.

This doesn't mean there aren't a number of devs who should be doing a better job, of providing Mac uninstallers, in cases where simply removing the app from Applications is not enough to remove what they installed.

It's not hard to scroll down the list and see what's being deleted. You can also choose in CCleaner which types of entries you want it to scan for. The risk of mucking your system up is basically nil unless your IQ is <= 60, or you are so ignorant about how these applications work that you have no business running it in the first place.

Developers cannot help either of those scenarios.

CCleaner also allows you to create a backup of what it deletes, so undoing it is basically double clicking a registry file to write the entries back.

I am not sure what your point is here, either.

[pdxindy]

Please move this whole discussion elsewhere and don't f**k this thread up with your Pc vs Mac stuff. I really appreciate to read about users here actually talk about Logic Pro.

Unfortunately that will not happen. It's a virtual impossibility on KVR to have a Mac/Mac Software related thread without Apple haters and various PC users spamming it to death.

[Trensharo]

I just uninstalled Falcon from my Mac and the Resources file is still left behind

[Trensharo]

Please move this whole discussion elsewhere and don't f**k this thread up with your Pc vs Mac stuff. I really appreciate to read about users here actually talk about Logic Pro.

Unfortunately that will not happen. It's a virtual impossibility on KVR to have a Mac/Mac Software related thread without Apple haters and various PC users spamming it to death.

When a DAW is tied to a specific hardware platform, it's inevitable that the relative value of that platform compared to other machines running competing platforms will factor in hugely in terms of value proposition.

Monetary Value is the most objective and primal means by which people judge products. Apple prices their "Pro Apps" low for this very reason, but the fact that they are tied to Apple's platform which runs exclusively on their hardware means that people are forced to factor in the cost disparities at that level as well - because they cannot access the software without making the investment in their hardware.

You cannot speak on the value of Logic Pro in isolation or in comparison to any of its competitors without factoring that in. It is always going to be a part of the discussion - de facto.

There really isn't much of any Mac vs. PC going on. The people discussing this own and use both Macs and PCs. If we were so against one or the other, we wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars buying them. I don't know about other people, but I don't spend $2K+ on computers just to validate myself bashing a company or their products...

[PAK]

I just uninstalled Falcon from my Mac and the Resources file is still left behind

Again, I can only say it didn't do that here - using Sonoma 14.3, and running the uninstaller directly from the Falcon V3.02 mounted DMG. If you're having difficulty surviving the trauma you could always contact UVI to help find any potential cause. Or, at least, take some comfort in knowing there was no registry being bloated behind your back..

To prevent future distress it might also help you to know GrandPerspective is free on Sourceforge

[PAK]

Another thing to point out is that on the iPad and iOS in general it's rare to find software that costs $199. It makes sense to go sub on iPad since it's less likely they could sell Logic Pro on the device for $199, but they can sell a sub for far cheaper. On the desktop $199 is the norm for a lot of software, especially in the DAW space.

You're right that pricing expectations play a role, and make it more difficult to offer full-priced Logic on iPad. So did Apple make iPad Logic subscription only because a $200 app went too far outside of the iOS / iPad norm? Or because they want Logic users to get used to a world where the App Store takes payments on an ongoing basis?

Most audio software is sold completely outside of the App Store. (At least some people at) Apple likely view that as a lost opportunity for revenue. Most devs aren't going to volunteer 30% of their sales either - unless there were clear reasons. Like, say, payments required on an ongoing basis using a payment method (the App Store) users already trust. AKA The argument for why Apple might seek to further promote desktop subscriptions, and how their considerations would go beyond their own software into attempts to capture a wider market.

The biggest counter, to any of this, being the App Store is not the exclusive means to install desktop software. So, unlike iOS currently, there’s other places to go - and they must surely be aware of the general distaste much of the DAW market has for subs. Would any lost customers be seen as a price they must pay in attempting to promote and normalise subscriptions? To be clear - I’m not arguing either way. Unless you’re privy to Logic 11’s plans there’s no way to know the answers.. though I do think some of it will be determined by how well Logic on iPad does. The obvious compromise is to offer both methods (sub and perpetual), nulling the issue for now.

Beyond that Logic 11 will indicate the extent to which Apple continue to view the desktop as a distinct platform, for devs and creators, or whether they think it should further merge with (the more consumer oriented) iOS, at least in terms of how they want applications to be paid for. But, living in the present, at least Logic 10 has provided exceptional value which very few hosts (FL Studio?.. ) can compete with..

[soulata]

The key to mastering Logic is the keyboard shortcuts.
I honestly can't imagine what problem people would have with the program. Must be a failure of imagination, on my part.
As for the whole mac issue: I paid 1605€ for my BTO M1 mini. That was half the price of my previous specced out 2015 iMac, and it is far more powerful and fast. I've kinda committed myself to another mini, as I had to buy a monitor.
Oh, and I sold that 2015 iMac for 700€ in 2022. So, it was certainly win-win for me.
I love its look, I know how to use it well enough for my needs, Space Designer and Chromaverb are excellent. The drum program it comes with (real drum samples) is quite good. I've certainly used worse. Then there's the step sequencer, which I have yet to try, but you can get all kinds of things going on with that. It has a lot of features for something I paid 179€ for 10+ years ago, now. Loads my main template inside of 20 seconds the first time I load it. If I quit and re-instantiate Logic, it's about 5 seconds. And bang! Ready to go, with all my instruments, fx, and audio tracks ready to rock n' roll.

I'll be moving to Mac very soon. Logic, too. Because a few of my friends use it and it'll be simpler to collaborate.

Any videos you'd suggest I watch before diving in?

[Bombadil]

This guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysZcWLEKZDU

And this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDoVou ... hOEqp74OpO

[soulata]

This guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysZcWLEKZDU

And this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDoVou ... hOEqp74OpO

Thanks!

[ahuman]

Pretty sure I am not the one who bought it up. I will block you so that I don't have to see you crying about it, though.

[qtheerearranger]

I'll be moving to Mac very soon. Logic, too. Because a few of my friends use it and it'll be simpler to collaborate.

Any videos you'd suggest I watch before diving in?

Yeah music tech help guy and why Logic Pro rules as linked above are for sure the two best. But there’s many great ones out there.

My only advice with logic is save before you do any flex editing. AUs don’t hard crash the daw with the sandboxing (like bitwig has) so you don’t really have to worry about plugins as much as other daws. But I get a lot of crashes with flex editing. So that’s my big recommend to a new user. Save before flex edits.

Also logic has a lot of settings turned off in default settings that should be turned on. A video I highly recommend watched is the why Logic Pro rules automation guide. If you don’t watch this video you will think logics automation is very unintuitive. Not saying it’s perfect after you watch the video we don’t have shapes and transform like Ableton and s1. The part where he tells you to turn on the setting where you can touch a 3rd party or native plugin and have the automation lane show up is crucial imo.