What is the attraction with logic ?

[apoclypse]

I have had AppCleaner on my Macs since 2013 and it's not quite what I'm looking for, though I do use it. However, there is often no point since I'll have to go to the same places to remove all the other junk, anyways. I have a pretty good idea of where this stuff is located. It would just be nice if I could run an uninstaller and it would do it all automatically - since the developers know where their applications create/place files.

Windows uninstallers leave a lot of crud behind as well. Like registry entries, stuff in the AppData and ProgramData folders. Pretty much the same stuff apps on macOS do. User stuff. Usually a developer includes an uninstaller if the app does anything like a System or Kernel Extension as those a bit more involved to uninstall, or sometimes if they have LaunchAgents. AppCleaner does a good enough job imo of finding and removing stuff that is no longer needed when deleting apps, it's obviously not going to find Sysex and Kexts but it does fin most everything else an app has associated with it based on my experience.

Windows uninstallers can, sure. But I don't have to go to 3 different folders to delete a plug-in after I run the uninstaller. The uninstaller knows that it installs plug-in files in the VST2, VST3 and AAX directories and will remove them.

I didn't say the Windows uninstallers were flawless, becasue that has a lot to do with how much attention the developers actually pay to it when creating the uninstaller. When building an uninstaller, you have to tell it what files to look for and delete. Many developers create "lazy" uninstallers that leave stuff behind. However, many others do not.

The issue is that having an uninstaller - at ALL - on macOS is more of an exception than teh norm. That's the problem.

So, when I want to uninstall something like Scaler 2, I have to delete each plug-in manually and then go and delete the sound data.

On Windows, I run the Scaler 2 uninstaller and it deletes all of that without me ever having to look for it.

Some data in AppData/ProgramData deserves to stay on the machine. That is often where License Registration is stored, so it can bd advantageous to store that data there and leave it there in case the user installs the application or plugin/utility again in the future - particularly for licenses that have activation limits. For example, if you activate Studio One or Melodyne, they will leave those activations behind when uninstalled... That way, if you ever re-install them, they are already activated.

I'm not really referring to applications that leave 50kb of XML files on the user machine, but some that can leave Hundreds of MBs to GIGABYTES of data on the user machine. Like, uninstalling Reason 12 with AppCleaner will still leave you 5-9GB of data on your system drive. That utility is worthless for this, and the stuff that is left in ProgramData (stored Login credentials) are things that are "fine" to leave behind.

Uninstalling Falcon leaves half a Gig of data in the Application Data folder on macOS, but removes the same data on Windows machines. Even in cases where both platform shave an uninstaller, the macOS uninstaller tends to be a worse offender than the Windows uninstaller.

Native Instruments needs to be manually uninstalled on macOS, otherwise you will continue to have services running on your machine, as there is no uninstaller for it and it is set to run on boot. On Windows, all of these services have an Uninstaller that is registered in Add/Remove Programs.

Please, less defensiveness. I use both platforms and have installed and uninstalled the same applications on both. I know the disparities.

And almost no one who knows what they are talking about gives a **** about the Windows registry. We are not living in the days of Windows 3.1. Unless you're installing and removing thousands of applications on your machine in an attempt to bloat the registry up to Gigabyte proportions, that is literally ignorable. Lol.

Who is being defensive? I was just saying that Windows uninstallers leave a lot of crap behind too which is a fact. I didn't feel the need to write 3 books to point that out unlike you though.

[revvy]

Fair point.

Still, the ‘Mac is the dongle’ post remains the dumbest shit in this (or any!) thread by far.

Q: what do you like about Logic
A: hey, you need a computer to run software


Duh.

[PAK]

I can buy a 14" laptop with a good i7 or Ryzen 9 CPU an RTX4070 and a 144-165Hz QHD display and spec the RAM and Storage down to bare minimum. It will be multiple hundreds cheaper than any comparable MacBook Pro at comparable screen size

Any? Because, if you’ve been comparing things to Apple’s prices, you’re going to have to recalibrate. You can get substantially lower prices elsewhere. Throughout the later half of 2023 new 16 inch M1 MBP’s could regularly be had for £/$1300.

I've also got some bad news about IPS panels. Did you know companies like LG grade those panels, and the customers paying the most (whether through volume or individual price) generally get given the higher grade panels? This translates to things like better grey screen uniformity. IE Things which aren’t going to be apparent from a spec comparison. Though Apple won’t be issue free here, they have to worry more about keeping the likes of Photoshop users happy. AKA Users who will be more likely to notice bad uniformity and return a laptop because of it. Thus they tend to do better than the PC laptop average.

It’s also rare for other laptop IPS displays to have an equivalent performing polariser (off axis glow) to the one Apple uses, and it’s also unlikely to maintain better accuracy at higher colour gamuts (Apple do a really good job of factory calibration) here etc. In short, there are actually some reasons (beyond Muh Apple marketing) why Apple sometimes get away with charging more premium prices. I didn’t even mention speakers - which are, generally, garbage on a majority of PC laptops. Downward firing speakers should be illegal!

[PAK]

Uninstalling Falcon leaves half a Gig of data in the Application Data folder on macOS, but removes the same data on Windows machines. Even in cases where both platform shave an uninstaller, the macOS uninstaller tends to be a worse offender than the Windows uninstaller.

Did you use the provided uninstaller in the extras folder on the Falcon DMG? Were you saying that uninstaller leaves behind the FalconResources.ufs file in Library/Application Support? Because that’s the only thing which would fit your description, and it would be an easy thing to tell UVI to fix if their uninstaller left it behind. It can’t delete that folder though, because otherwise it might delete your other Falcon sound libraries! EDIT: Just tested it and UVI's uninstaller correctly removed that file here.. soo..

I agree apps, which install to multiple locations, should provide uninstallers (And Falcon does in its case). There are reasons why this isn’t the default on Mac OS though. Mac OS treats the “.app” extension as a single file. It isn’t. It’s a special type of folder. So installing on a Mac is more like dragging a folder into “Program Files” on Windows to install. If anyone’s familiar with the concept of “portable” installations on Windows, this is more like what Mac OS does by default. So all you usually have to do, to remove the app, is to drag the file to the trash.

Where information is stored outside of this, it will use places like the Documents folder and Users/Shared, and it is pretty similar to Windows in this regard. Windows uninstallers will usually always leave these files behind, because they weren’t actually installed by the installer. Instead they were generated by the program you’re using. So there’s actually no advantage to an uninstaller in these cases (Which make up the majority on Mac OS).

However, there are indeed annoying programs which install to multiple locations and fail to provide an uninstaller - or, at least, an effective one. In these cases you are left to clean their mess, and this is when Windows, which usually comes with the expectation of an uninstaller, can indeed do better. When that happens be sure to complain to companies (NI being one of them) for failing to do a better job by providing an uninstaller on Mac OS.

This said, where things take a major departure is the registry. It is VERY rare that an application will clean all traces from the registry on Windows. Over time this bloats things and can cause problems in ways which don’t occur to the same degree on Mac OS. That’s because the Mac uses things like “plist” files to store this information instead. The key difference being, provided you know how to find these files on Mac OS, it’s a much simpler matter to delete them. And, even if you leave them, it’s just cluttering some random directory rather than bloating a registry with entries.

Just like Windows, Mac “cleaner” apps are garbage, and tend to do more harm than good. If you’re using Mac OS, use a utility like “Find Any File”, and learn where and how information is stored on your Mac. This way you’ll eventually do a far better job, than any utility, of cleanly removing things.

[mheo]

Fair point.

Still, the ‘Mac is the dongle’ post remains the dumbest shit in this (or any!) thread by far.

Q: what do you like about Logic
A: hey, you need a computer to run software


Duh.

As for me, I speak only for myself. I started in the 90s and went on with Apple and Logic for over 20 years (Logic cost a lot more back then). Nowadays things have changed, windows 10 is very stable. Moreover, audio software has become "PC & MAC" (once it was "MAC or PC at your own risk"). If Apple decided to make Logic for Windows as well, I would be the first to buy it. But not Apple computers, which are now too expensive for me and not even dual bootable. I am still using an intel imac, anyway. I'm not an Apple hater or smth. That's all.

[Monsieur_FyP]

Not surprisingly, this thread about Logic immediately became : "What could possibly justify Apple's unjustifiable existence?".
Never fails!

[revvy]

Fair point.

Still, the ‘Mac is the dongle’ post remains the dumbest shit in this (or any!) thread by far.

Q: what do you like about Logic
A: hey, you need a computer to run software


Duh.

As for me, I speak only for myself. I started in the 90s and went on with Apple and Logic for over 20 years (Logic cost a lot more back then). Nowadays things have changed, windows 10 is very stable. Moreover, audio software has become "PC & MAC" (once it was "MAC or PC at your own risk"). If Apple decided to make Logic for Windows as well, I would be the first to buy it. But not Apple computers, which are now too expensive for me and not even dual bootable. I am still using an intel imac, anyway. I'm not an Apple hater or smth. That's all.

Sure. But "I'm not going to buy another Mac" is quite different from "it's a dongle".

[mheo]

For me it would be an expensive "dongle", because other than Logic I've never used Apple OS. I prefer Windows for everything else. Now they have their own CPU ("Silicon" or whatever"), which does not allow dual-boot ("bootcamp") anymore. So for me it's a no-no, alas. Logic remains a great piece of software, I kind of envy rich mac users. I cannot afford a new Mac (for Logic only) though.

[machinesworking]

In typical KVR fashion a thread asking what is attractive about Logic becomes filled with people who used to use Logic, or who use PC complaining about Macs.

[pdxindy]

Not surprisingly, this thread about Logic immediately became : "What could possibly justify Apple's unjustifiable existence?".
Never fails!

Yup... all the Apple haters cannot restrain themselves from spamming Mac threads.

[dellboy]

Not surprisingly, this thread about Logic immediately became : "What could possibly justify Apple's unjustifiable existence?".
Never fails!

Yup... all the Apple haters cannot restrain themselves from spamming Mac threads.

The word "hate" is a polarising word. Personally, I neither love or hate Apple products. I have an iphone 13 in my pocket, I neither love or hate it. Its a good phone,its my preferred brand of phone. Polarising words are good marketing tools.

[Bombadil]

The key to mastering Logic is the keyboard shortcuts.
I honestly can't imagine what problem people would have with the program. Must be a failure of imagination, on my part.
As for the whole mac issue: I paid 1605€ for my BTO M1 mini. That was half the price of my previous specced out 2015 iMac, and it is far more powerful and fast. I've kinda committed myself to another mini, as I had to buy a monitor.
Oh, and I sold that 2015 iMac for 700€ in 2022. So, it was certainly win-win for me.
I love its look, I know how to use it well enough for my needs, Space Designer and Chromaverb are excellent. The drum program it comes with (real drum samples) is quite good. I've certainly used worse. Then there's the step sequencer, which I have yet to try, but you can get all kinds of things going on with that. It has a lot of features for something I paid 179€ for 10+ years ago, now. Loads my main template inside of 20 seconds the first time I load it. If I quit and re-instantiate Logic, it's about 5 seconds. And bang! Ready to go, with all my instruments, fx, and audio tracks ready to rock n' roll.

[machinesworking]

The key to mastering Logic is the keyboard shortcuts.

This a million times over, it's probably more true for Logic than even DP or Cubase. The big "do everything" DAWs require you to learn methods of using them that some people just do not want to bother with, IMO hence the emergence of DAWs like Live, Bitwig and others that limit shortcuts, and do a whole hell of a lot more WYSIWYG UX than Logic, DP etc. ever did.

This is a personal choice of course, but the way the timeline cursor works in Live and Bitwig for instance bothers me, I'm used to and appreciate Logic and DP's more shortcut driven methods. For instance selecting MIDI or audio in the arrangement does not start the cursor at that selected point unless you use a key shortcut, but it does in Live and Bitwig. For a lot of people the Live etc. way is preferable, but personally once you start in on really editing a song, it gets in my way how sticky the timeline is.

Someone once pointed out on a forum decades ago when I was first thinking about using Logic, that it's not a DAW you walk up to and figure out everything right away in, even the basics will be daunting at first, but once you get into it, it can be one of the fastest DAWs to work in. That was my experience with it.

[pdxindy]

The word "hate" is a polarising word.

In some cases... and sometimes it's an accurate description.

[Trensharo]

Did you use the provided uninstaller in the extras folder on the Falcon DMG? Were you saying that uninstaller leaves behind the FalconResources.ufs file in Library/Application Support? Because that’s the only thing which would fit your description, and it would be an easy thing to tell UVI to fix if their uninstaller left it behind. It can’t delete that folder though, because otherwise it might delete your other Falcon sound libraries! EDIT: Just tested it and UVI's uninstaller correctly removed that file here.. soo..

1. I addressed having to download an installer to access an uninstaller upthread Most people will install and Uninstall Falcon via UVI Portal. By comparison, iZotope's uninstallers are flawless - literally, and not meant facetiously. Whoever is building the uninstallers there knows what they are doing.

2. The FalconResources UFS is not installed in the same directory as the Sound Libraries by default, so there is no risk of it "deleting your sound libraries" when uninstalling Falcon. This is true for both platforms. On macOS, the FalconResources.ufs file is in Application Data\Falcon while the sound libraries default to Application Data\UVISoundBanks (going off memory, as I'm not on my Mac atm, but the gist should be on point).

3. I shouldn't have to tell a developer to fix their uninstaller. To their credit, UVI Support has generally been S-Tier for me. But this is something that should be addressed before users have access to the installer.

I can recognize cases where not doing this makes sense.

I also ran into the hilarious issue of REAPER deleting ReWire support files that existed before it was installed, breaking ReWire for every other pre-existing application on the machine after you uninstalled it. This was a few years ago, but the solution was to "reinstall" the other application to add them back; and after about a year I tried REAPER again and it was still deleting those files on uninstall. Lol.

This said, where things take a major departure is the registry. It is VERY rare that an application will clean all traces from the registry on Windows. Over time this bloats things and can cause problems in ways which don’t occur to the same degree on Mac OS. That’s because the Mac uses things like “plist” files to store this information instead. The key difference being, provided you know how to find these files on Mac OS, it’s a much simpler matter to delete them. And, even if you leave them, it’s just cluttering some random directory rather than bloating a registry with entries.

Most of this is historical FUD. I'm not even going to bother responding to it. Enjoy 1992, though.

Just like Windows, Mac “cleaner” apps are garbage, and tend to do more harm than good. If you’re using Mac OS, use a utility like “Find Any File”, and learn where and how information is stored on your Mac. This way you’ll eventually do a far better job, than any utility, of cleanly removing things.

CCleaner does a good job of removing "Orphaned" Registry Entries, and after uninstalling multiple apps I often run it. It is almost faultless at doing that. The Disk Cleaner is also flawless.

However, its' working with the advantage of the Registry being its own separate database using its own scheme, and not a series of files spread across the file system. So, simply running Disk and Registry Cleaners in isolation pretty much eliminate one or the other process from leaking into the wrong domain.

With macOS, Cleaner apps can delete "Registry" information when the user intends to delete other types of data, which is where the issues I ran into with CleanMyMac stem from.

This isn't a back-breaking problem for me on Mac, since - as I've stated - I don't actually have that many third party apps installed there. Most of my third-party apps are on Windows, because they only exist on Windows for domains where almost no one uses a Mac (so the developers aren't going to port to that platform).

Also, I prefer to buy Windows software as it's cheaper over the long term, due to Windows not breaking compatibility the way macOS often does.