Do you use the Grid? (Grid discussion)

[nowiamone]

Thought I'd make a thread solely focused on the Bitwig Grid.

It's basically a built in modular environment similar to something like Nord Modular or VCV Rack that lets you build things along the lines of what you can do there. It's pretty awesome but I never really find myself using it in my main workflow, which is something I would like to change. I think integrating it into my main daily tools would open up a whole world of sounds and creative potential and fluency. My main impediment is I generally just find it kind of cumbersome to rapidly build something, mainly because I am not fluent in the components and general approach.

Anyway, one thing I thought the other day that the Grid really could use, is an improved Sampler module. Like, Sampler+ in the grid. That would be awesome. As it stands, the current Sampler doesn't have built in automatic chopping which I think would add possibilities of triggering random slices. Though now that I think about it you could achieve something similar to it by modulating sample start.

Also, I think something the Grid could really use would be expanded possibilities like something more like Max/MSP where theres scripting and more technical aspects opened up to let users have even more freedom tinkering and doing crazy stuff.

"Actually, as my very first grid device, i wanted to build an audio looper. With the grid being a highly praised "omnipotent" tool, i was sure that this should be possible in a smooth way. WRONG. The audio recorder of the grid records 6 seconds only, haha! And it doesn’t have any additional functions beyond simple playback. And the Sampler can’t be fed with live audio. So the Grid desperately needs better Audio-Recording abilities for live-performance. The best thing would be to let users record live audio directly into the Sampler, while also adding better automatic slicing to it."

I guess for people who are interested in synthesis, the grid must feel like heaven.
Since my main interest for building something in the grid never was about synthesis, but audio live manipulation, i have to say that i am extremely disappointed in it.
Thankfully, i found an outside-the-grid solution to building an audio looper but that's another story

Concerning your feature wish for the grid to become more like m4l, i fully agree. Let me add my thoughts:

- Bitwig should please extend the Grid to be like Max 4 Live, but better, with stability as top priority. Stability is the absolute top priority, imho, and i trust in Bitwigs team and Bitwigs architecture (plugin sandboxing!), to make this come true!
If the grid becomes as powerful as m4l, while also being stable and never crashing the DAW itself, m4l users and developers will consider switching to Bitwig. Because they'll know "what can be done in m4l, can be done over there at Bitwig too, but BETTER/stable/reliant".

- Full access to the API, so the users can create all the awesome tools which they are missing from Bitwig, on any level of the DAW. Piano roll improvements, check. Interface settings improvements... whatever you can dream of.

- An Environment (Editor), where users will be able to do scripting actions, AND create a graphical interface for their devices! Lack of custom GUIs/Windows is a severe impairment, if you compare the grid with the universe which is m4l. (Visual Browser, Plugin Wrappers, Loopstation with floating windows... to name a few)

[SLiC]

It is highly unlikely that the Grid will ever be like MAX4Live, they are two totally different things. Cycling 74 are a much bigger company that Bitwig with a lot more developers (they have 30 employees just for MAX development) and it seem to me the Grid is focused on simplicity and integration. I agree the lack of GUI and perhaps a packaging manager (to sell and deploy) is a limitation for the Grid that makes it far more likely to be used for small 'bits' within a project than to produce a stand-alone device that competes with VSTs. Don't forget with MAX RNBO option you can convert max devices to VSTs now, and even turn them in to hardware as they run on Pi computers etc. so that another incentive of developers to learn and stick with MAX.

[foosnark]

I like the grid in principle. I think it's pretty amazing. Yet I also have been using VCV Rack as a plugin in Bitwig. There is an awful lot of overlap. There is definitely something to be said for working within the Bitwig system, but I've also invested a lot of time learning VCV. For me, VCV is a more sophisticated working environment with an incredible library. It maps nicely to the modular hardware world. I'm sure there are things that I could do in the Grid that I can't easily do in VCV, but the opposite is probably also true. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, I'm just adding another perspective.

I don't often use either Poly Grid nor VCV Rack as a MIDI instrument. I use both for drones and generative stuff; if I want to play software parts with my Roli or loops with Seqund I'll use a softsynth for that.

I like Grid more for routing and processing other signals. I also generally favor it for modular sequencing stuff (since it's simpler to send clocks etc. to my Eurorack gear and I like the phase-based sequencing it has). It's just more straightforward to get signals in and out and it mostly excels at low-level utility modules, where the minimalistic view really suits it.

VCV Rack has more sophisticated oscillators and FX, a few extremely good filter modules and some cool experimental modules that represent a complex patch/logic within themselves. It also has several module types that are still missing from Grid.

[pdxindy]

With the grid being a highly praised "omnipotent" tool

Nobody who knows the Grid at all has ever said that...

[pdxindy]

It is highly unlikely that the Grid will ever be like MAX4Live, they are two totally different things. Cycling 74 are a much bigger company that Bitwig with a lot more developers (they have 30 employees just for MAX development) and it seem to me the Grid is focused on simplicity and integration.

Yeah, the Grid is not a programming environment like Max or Reaktor, etc. I'm glad it's not cause that means I can actually do stuff in it.

I've owned Reaktor for a long time and M4L since its introduction and I have never made a single thing in either of them because they are too complicated with a steep learning curve. I made a satisfying synth patch within 10 minutes of trying the Grid.

As you mentioned, one thing I think is likely, is user GUI's for Grid patches. There are now 3 devices in Bitwig that are Grid patches underneath. (Polymer, Filter+ and Sweep). It's my impression that they are steadily working towards users being able to create such GUI's for their Grid patches.

[enCiphered]

What would be really cool is if they implemented something like an AI Grid assistant in the future, where you can enter a specific prompt and it generates and connects the modules you need. So, if you want a slow, sequenced FM pad, you enter this exact prompt, and the grid generates it

[nowiamone]

It is highly unlikely that the Grid will ever be like MAX4Live, they are two totally different things. Cycling 74 are a much bigger company that Bitwig with a lot more developers (they have 30 employees just for MAX development) and it seem to me the Grid is focused on simplicity and integration.

Yeah, the Grid is not a programming environment like Max or Reaktor, etc. I'm glad it's not cause that means I can actually do stuff in it.

I've owned Reaktor for a long time and M4L since its introduction and I have never made a single thing in either of them because they are too complicated with a steep learning curve. I made a satisfying synth patch within 10 minutes of trying the Grid.

As you mentioned, one thing I think is likely, is user GUI's for Grid patches. There are now 3 devices in Bitwig that are Grid patches underneath. (Polymer, Filter+ and Sweep). It's my impression that they are steadily working towards users being able to create such GUI's for their Grid patches.

I agree that the programming environment like m4l is ugly and to some extent "unusable", because it's not very inviting to look at and play around with.
So the general idea of the grid to make basic components available as widgets, with cables etc. is awesome.
However, i would envision the extension of the grid to be a secondary layer, which goes 'beneath' the currently visible grid, as another "view" so to speak, which only would be used by people who want to go deeper than pre-determined widgets. So i would agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to make the current workflow (the visual editor of the grid) any else than what it is - instead would include any further programming/scripting stuff as secondary layer, which is hidden by default. Again, Full access to Bitwigs API would open up universes/dimensions of devices, which go beyond imagination - it's just awesome what some enthusiastic m4l people can get to work, and i would love that for Bitwig, too. But yes, not by "replacing" the current grid editor, only by introducing a second layer to it, or similar userfriendly and 'grid-preserving' methods

[foosnark]

What would be really cool is

Hey AI, make me a Grid patch that deletes all AI assistants from my computer.

[pdxindy]

^^^

[mevla]

Hey AI, make me a Grid patch that deletes all AI assistants from my computer.

"Does. Not. Compute."

[mevla]

Libraries. Being able to make them with well-defined I/O, being able to share them. Need the famous Triggers/Triggers/Clk Quantize pattern ? Fetch it in the library. That's a simple example.

Think electronic circuits CAD software. Libraries would be very useful and could even open a market of some sort. At least sharing them would be great.

Optionally would be I/O patch points to keep designs clean without having wires all over the place. Like underground tunnels. Exit at one place and surface up somewhere else. You have a TTCQ pattern that's used all over ? Make the signal exit cleanly at one point right beside the TTCQ pattern. Then use simple entry points to make it surface elsewhere where needed.

[mxbf]

thoughts on various things without quoting:

1. Grid vs VCV rack
VCV Rack absolutely blew me away for years, and I think it's amazing. That said, I spent some time playing with the Nord Modular G2 demo software and after that, I just felt that the GUI was much better and always have wanted that in software. With Grid, I can't help but feel it really brings that Nord G2 to Bitwig, which makes me want to commit to it as a main tool. VCV has much better modules due to open source, but actually patching and controlling VCV is (in my opinion) less intuitive. As Bitwig is my main DAW, I love how the Grid is just built in. With VCV, that extra step of adding the VST and dealing with the window - while minor - somehow makes me reluctant to reach for it. Also, modulating everything in Bitwig with their built in suite of excellent modulation sources is way better than dragging in tons of LFOs/randomizers/etc in VCV, for instance. All of that just works, quickly and fluidly in Bitwig Grid.

That said, VCV is open and so it has many more diverse and interesting sound design tools. There's no actual limitation on what anyone can do there, compared to Grid.

2. Grid audio limitations
I agree with the user above that said that the Grid is very lacking in audio and sampling manipulation tools. You can hack together some kind of "buffer repeat loop" type thing with the delays, which I followed a tutorial to do a long time ago. But it's very limited. In VCV there are a lot of tools for stuff like that. It would be great to see a suite of tools that expand the possibilities there.

3. Grid vs Max/MSP
The Grid should not be like MAX/Msp or compete with that. Max is very low level and the overall design philosophy of Max is more in line with Reaktor. The Grid should remain like Nord Modular / VCV / Audulus but should expand to be a bit more like VCV Rack where there's a bit more of an open ecosystem - at least to some extent - so that more possibilities can be added. It seems pretty clear that without opening up some level of access to the API or whatever the term would be, to allow some level of user development of modules (or even just letting outside developers help to contribute more than is possible now to the official project), that the Grid will not really expand as much/quickly as it perhaps ought to. That said, it would also be good to make sure that the quality of the modules remains tight and useful, as there is a risk of an overflow of superfluous or low-quality things flooding in.

The question really comes down to a matter of commitment to any given technology. The options for those interested in creative modular audio software are diverse. VCV, Cherry Audio, Softube, Max, Supercollider, Grid, Nord Modular, Reaktor Toybox etc. But at some point, I do think it benefits someone to kind of choose one to become expert in. Personally, I want that to be Grid because Bitwig is my DAW, and the integration is just so perfect and fluid. Also, it most closely resembles Nord Modular which I love. So I definitely am hoping to see it continue growing and developing, and it seems what could make that the most likely would be to offer at least some level of opening up things.

[enCiphered]

Not to mention that modulating everything in Bitwig with their built in suite of excellent modulation sources is way better than dragging in tons of LFOs in VCV, for instance.

This is not true unfortunately. There are still enough unmodulatable targets in Bitwig, think of modulating individual steps in the step sequencer device, operators and more. But yes, we are almost there..

[Davedfx]

It's cool and needs some work. The Grid Ui is not great. No grouping and the interface is a bit slow. Wiring can be a nightmare. So hard to read and debug.

I come from a VFX node compositing background using Nuke and other node based apps. Bitwig should pick up some workflows from those apps.

https://youtu.be/d2H-Kul9bbw?si=N5wSbmuuLqzEF22s

[monolithx]

I still don't understand the advantage of the Grid over existing 3rd party tools when comparing it to all missing features that other DAWs can do. It's supposed to be a DAW but half of it looks like a sound design tool. It's interesting for MIDI because there aren't so many 3rd party MIDI FX processors.