who has perfect pitch?

[droolmaster0]

"sorry dude my life has no room for pintless dribble"

Well, starting off with an insult is a good way to establish your intellectual credentials.

"...my
post was in response to this."

But what does not follow from the definitions is that they might sense some more subtle difference that they can't define. so this audience member might, on 2 consecutive nights, hear the same music played at a different pitch.

"you are the one that said audience it it's quite obvious you meant a live audience as a recorded piece is not gonna change pitch much unless it's played on two different systems, one having crap gear. But then you say this"

I'm not quite sure what that means, but if the quote above of mine is verbatim, there was a typo. It should read 'what does not follow from the definitions is that they might NOT sense some more subtle differences that they can't define" But everything else I've said is consistent with this version. Yes, I said 'audience'. Makes no difference, and everything you are saying shows that you simply do not understand the point that is being made, which is actually pretty tame. YOu are attacking it as if I am saying something that 'rocks your world' or something.

I am perfectly comfortable with the notion that a composer has an audience. In fact, I think that you will hear other people talk this way. What you are not realizing is that the meanings of words are derived from their use - this is obviously a slightly different meaning of the word than when you speak of a performer playing for an audience. When you speak of the audience of a composer, you quite obviously are referring to those people who listen to his music played by a performer of some sort, which would include stereo reproduction or live performance.

"which is what I call spin and see no point in taking it any further..."

It's simply correct. But that obviously doesn't really affect you much because you don't have time for "pintless dribble". Actually, maybe you did literally mean 'pintless', which explains the dribbling. Have a drink, man.

Well, I think you need to pay more attention to exactly what is being said.

"you might try paying attention to what you say..."

I have paid very careful attention to exactly what I'm saying, which is really a very fine differentiation based on the meanings of the words being used. But I think that you really need another beer.

[IvoryTickler]

How did you guys go on the Perfect-pitch test linked to above?

http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/home.html
Go to "Supplements"/Absolute pitch

I got 8/10 trying very hard to ignore relative pitch decisions. The two I got wrong were both A flat - one I called as an E and another as an F#. I don't know why A flat should cause me problems.

So - my pitch ain't so perfect after all!

[Hink]

How did you guys go on the Perfect-pitch test linked to above?

http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/home.html
Go to "Supplements"/Absolute pitch

I got 8/10 trying very hard to ignore relative pitch decisions. The two I got wrong were both A flat - one I called as an E and another as an F#. I don't know why A flat should cause me problems.

So - my pitch ain't so perfect after all!

I haven't tried that, thanx for the link...but like I say I don't have perfect pitch, but I have devoped my ears quite well...which often is a pain the ass.

I do use sveral different techniqies for tuning as I use many different tunings...so the standard 55545 method isn't always good. So I use a lot different methods, like by octave, a chord...like my favorite tuning (Am) I can play it open and no what's out...but that's for jamming, now for recording I always use a tuner...

[el davo]

How did you guys go on the Perfect-pitch test linked to above?

http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/home.html
Go to "Supplements"/Absolute pitch

I got 8/10 trying very hard to ignore relative pitch decisions. The two I got wrong were both A flat - one I called as an E and another as an F#. I don't know why A flat should cause me problems.

So - my pitch ain't so perfect after all!

dude. it's good enough. I got none right most within 2-3 half-notes, but some way off. luckily I'm not a jazz musician..

[Hink]

How did you guys go on the Perfect-pitch test linked to above?

http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/home.html
Go to "Supplements"/Absolute pitch

I got 8/10 trying very hard to ignore relative pitch decisions. The two I got wrong were both A flat - one I called as an E and another as an F#. I don't know why A flat should cause me problems.

So - my pitch ain't so perfect after all!

dude. it's good enough. I got none right most within 2-3 half-notes, but some way off. luckily I'm not a jazz musician..

now you do realise that this test may change your playing tremendously right? Even if you're not aware of it's likely a part of your brain will be more critical when analyzing notes. It would be a great expiriment if you were to take the same type test next year...

[Radek]

Does the process of learning an instrument give you the moods associated with pitch? For example, most pianists learn their early simple pieces in C major. To me now, any piece in C major tends to sound straightforward and uncomplicated - independantly of the actual music. Having established that association in my mind, would that be the reason for the dramatic change in mood I hear from moving to B major or F# major?

Now what happens with eg violinists who would (I presume) first learn in other keys (E and A). Are their moods "keyed" in to their learning experience?

I have met the opposite to perfect pitch - a friend who was totally tone deaf. He heard music as volumes and rhythms only - which I worked out initially from the fact that he sang along in totally random notes but accurately matched the volume he was singing at to the record. He also had no idea when to change gear in his car, and had to watch the rev counter to do so as he was unaware of the engine's note rising.

Strangely he absolutely loved music - purely for rhythms and lyrics.

Don't worry - his brain is absolutely capable of hearing pitch. It's just his consciousness that isn't. This is not that usimilar from me for an example. Give me exercise to tell a pitch of sound - I will fail. Let me to improvise to it - suprise, no problem!

[Hink]

I don't think learning an instrument in this day and age is needed to learn and understand the "moods" of keys. Expirimenting with different keys in writing music should surfice...

[el davo]

How did you guys go on the Perfect-pitch test linked to above?

http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/home.html
Go to "Supplements"/Absolute pitch

I got 8/10 trying very hard to ignore relative pitch decisions. The two I got wrong were both A flat - one I called as an E and another as an F#. I don't know why A flat should cause me problems.

So - my pitch ain't so perfect after all!

dude. it's good enough. I got none right most within 2-3 half-notes, but some way off. luckily I'm not a jazz musician..

now you do realise that this test may change your playing tremendously right? Even if you're not aware of it's likely a part of your brain will be more critical when analyzing notes. It would be a great expiriment if you were to take the same type test next year...

It won't change it at all I stopped playing the piano and tuba(!) 15 years ago (having played almost daily for maybe 6-7 years). Since then I have "programmed" music. My sense for harmonies and relative pitch allows me to get by.

I focus a lot more on where it currently makes an impact for me: further improving my mixing skills. Believe me, I listen critically, but for mix details rather than pitch, and have vastly improved that aspect of my hearing in the last few years.

But thanks

[IvoryTickler]

his brain is absolutely capable of hearing pitch. It's just his consciousness that isn't.

Wow, Radek. But I'm not sure how you can be so certain. His auditory pathway, I suspect, is intact, and I suppose if we measured auditory nerve discharge rates they would vary with pitch. So I suppose, yes, the "lesion" is probably beyond the physical structure of the brain. Or perhaps not - distributed systems are so hard to get to grips with.

[DELUDE]

I did the test flawlessly.
I wouldn't say there are things regarding music compusition you can't do with relative pitch only. However absolute pitch makes everything a lot faster. With me at least I don't really have to question a note, I just hear it as a "la" or "mi" or whatever, it's just like synaesthesia, the notes are somehowe inherent to the sounds i hear.

Another point that was raised - scalings - absolute pitch can be extremely useful here - for instance if you play in a non-western scale you relative pitch skills might fall short because your ear is not used to the odd intervals, so a good ablosute pitch hearing can help a lot.

Regarding being born with perfect pitch - well apparently it's impossible since even if you here well you wouldn't be able to tell what you're hearing until you learn a little theory. There may be something genetic to it but most of it comes from training I think.

[Radek]

his brain is absolutely capable of hearing pitch. It's just his consciousness that isn't.

Wow, Radek. But I'm not sure how you can be so certain. His auditory pathway, I suspect, is intact, and I suppose if we measured auditory nerve discharge rates they would vary with pitch. So I suppose, yes, the "lesion" is probably beyond the physical structure of the brain. Or perhaps not - distributed systems are so hard to get to grips with.

Well... I'm not 100 percent sure but...
When We we all are talking to other... we are really singing somewhat (record your talking and analise it) and your friend isn't rather an exception in this regards. If he would be then he speach would sounds like a robotic one, is it?

Then I have myself and I'm not capable to tell you a pitch of tone I'm hearing. However I will be able to improvise to it. So what this means? It's just my consciousness that isn't capable of "getting it". At least that is what I'm thinking about this phenomena.

There is also a some kind of blindness when someone can not see but when you throw a ball (for an example) at him his hand will catch it! This is called "cortical psychic blindness".

[Hink]

I don't know that robotic wuld be accurate, monotone..yes...and I do know a few monotone speakers (guess that's a new england thing though )...

[el davo]

Regarding being born with perfect pitch - well apparently it's impossible since even if you here well you wouldn't be able to tell what you're hearing until you learn a little theory. There may be something genetic to it but most of it comes from training I think.

Right. There are several components involved: being able to detect pitch, knowing what the notes are called, and remembering.

As far as "most of it comes from training, although there may be some genetic factor", our understanding of a possible genetic component is limited. but there are some suggestive evidence for this:

1) not everyone who practises music at an early age develops perfect pitch.
2) there is a high rate of familial aggregation (9% sibling recurrence rate)
3) it varies among populations - it is more frequent e.g. in individuals of Asian descent (Chinese, Korean, Japanese), even when environmental factors are controlled for (age of exposure to music, tonal(chinese)/atonal(korean, japanese) languange.

I'd say that it is, like almost all human abilities, a combination of innate ability and the opportunity to manifest it. There is a spectrum from 100% inherited to 0% (although some vainly argue that there is a genetic component to being hit by lightning .. this is probably to the 10-30% side, but it's too early to tell... larger datasets and a better understanding of the underlying biology is needed.

As you went as far as taking the test, why don't you read the paper on the same page. Humor me.

[herodotus]

Since 1600 or so western music has employed various different forms of intonation:

Just intonation is the most pure, in the sense that it employs acoustically pure consonances. The problem is that the nature of acoustics (and the dreaded Pythagorean comma) limits one to only a few keys and a few octaves.

To deal with this, the system of temperament called meantone was employed, which retains the acoustically pure thirds while narrowing the fifths and fourths. This was the regnant system when Bach was writing his early music. It allows for 8 different keys and has a rich harmonic coloration that changes from key to key (which is the historical origin of the notion that there are mood/key associations). Meantone was very slowly replaced with equal temperament. It didn't happen overnight the way midi has. There is reason to believe that the well tempered clavier is in fact written in an intonation different from the one we use today.

A different intonation is completely different from a different tuning. The relationships between the intervals don't change in equal temperament, no matter what middle A is. Conversely, a keyboard in meantone intonation will sound different from a keyboard in equal temperament., even if middle A=440 on both of them...........

There has been a lot of really untrue stuff asserted here. But the worst is the part about certain keys having certain moods.

In equal temperament ALL KEYS ARE HARMONICALLY IDENTICAL!!!

And as for whether having absolute pitch makes it easier or harder to be a musician: NO ONE CAN KNOW THIS. This is because one only knows ones own experiences, and one either does or does not have absolute pitch. Meaning that one can't intelligently evaluate the experiences of others who are different.

[Hink]

sorry my friend but you're mistaken minor and major keys are not harmonically identical...