interval quality question

[fmr]

... a practice question asking me to state the three notes that make up a Major 7th in the key of F# minor.

There are several possibilities to build Major 7th chords in a minor scale. If you build a seventh chord over the third degree, for example, that chord will be a Major 7th chord. The same happens if you build a chord over the sixth degree.

[shugs]

Let me try again...I meant to say the question is dealing with triads in the key of F sharp minor. and it is asking about what are the three notes that compose VII. I know how to construct a major chord. The question is why are they starting with E and not E# in their answer. My best guess is that they are using the natural minor, vs the harmonic.

ignore my noise about the 7th chord; I got off track there

[shawshawraw]

Let me try again...I meant to say the question is dealing with triads in the key of F sharp minor. and it is asking about what are the three notes that compose VII.

Theory books are inconsistent in the use of Roman numerals AFAIK. In your case, E chord in F# minor, some books write it as VII, some write bVII... I personally stick with bVII.

[jancivil]

ok,,so a bare 7 will imply a dominant chord ? so Em7 is supposed to be a Dominant ?

No, I did not say dominant chord, you said dominant 7th, which is all you.
Dominant harmony means a dominant function; this is not signaled by a minor 7 interval over a triad through itself. Now, many people conflate this construction, a major/minor 7 (the first bit is the quality of the third, after the slash is the quality of the seventh) with the term dominant seventh. Highly knowledgable people do it, somewhat annoyingly.

A 7 in that kind of depiction without 'Major' or a triangle sign meaning major, or a º meaning the 7 is diminished means a minor 7 interval


"the v chord", given as a lower case roman number which indicates minor third, will be C# minor in F# minor.

[fmr]

Let me try again...I meant to say the question is dealing with triads in the key of F sharp minor. and it is asking about what are the three notes that compose VII.

Theory books are inconsistent in the use of Roman numerals AFAIK. In your case, E chord in F# minor, some books write it as VII, some write bVII... I personally stick with bVII.

None of this indicates the function. And what does "bVII" even means in a tonality with sharps? That's why people become confused.

What people should know is that the real harmony chord in F# minor is the one built over E#. If you build a chord over E, you are most likely modulating, or you are treating F# minor as F# Aeolian. IMO this is much clearer.

People should learn chords IN CONTEXT, because the same chord plays different roles in different tonalities. For example, you may build a leading-tone seventh chord over the second degree of a minor scale, but IT ISN'T a leading-tone seventh, unless you decide to treat it that way. That's why you should avoid building a chord over that degree, if you are harmonizing tonally. The same happens with the chord built over the natural seventh degree. If you are using a natural seventh (sub-tonic, instead of the leading tone) you are building a dominant seventh chord, EXCEPT IT ISN'T A DOMINANT chord, unless you decide to treat it that way, in which case you are modulating to the relative Major. That's why you would not use a chord (especially a seventh chord) built over that note, unless you are going to modulate.

[shawshawraw]

None of this indicates the function. And what does "bVII" even means in a tonality with sharps? That's why people become confused.

What people should know is that the real harmony chord in F# minor is the one built over E#. If you build a chord over E, you are most likely modulating, or you are treating F# minor as F# Aeolian. IMO this is much clearer.

People should learn chords IN CONTEXT, because the same chord pays different roles in different tonalities. For example, you may build a leading-tone seventh chord over the second degree of a minor scale, but IT ISN'T a leading-tone seventh, unless you decide to treat it that way. That's why you should avoid building a chord over that degree, if you are harmonizing tonally. The same happens with the chord built over the natural seventh degree. If you are using a natural seventh (sub-tonic, instead of the leading tone) you are building a dominant seventh chord, EXFEPT IT ISN'T A DOMINANT chord, unless you decide to treat it that way, in which case you are modulating to the relative Major. That's why you would not use a chord (especially a seventh chord) built over that note, unless you are going to modulate.

I see what you mean. Totally makes sense in classical harmony!

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

all augmented and diminished intervals are defined as dissonant.

Where did you hear/read that? This would mean that an augmented major second, which equals a minor third, is dissonant and so forth. Soon all intervals would be dissonances.

The other day we were talking about first species counterpoint as part of your course. Sticking to strict counterpoint, the definition of Fux is as follows:

Unison, third, fifth, sixth, octave = consonances

Second, diminished 5th, augmented 4th, seventh = dissonances

Fourth has double role: If the interval’s lowest note is tonic in a harmony, it is a dissonance and needs resolution (4-3 suspension), if its lower tone is the fifth in a harmony, it is (imperfect) consonant.

You should stick to this at first. In post-Fuxian counterpoint an interval like minor 7th may have more relative character as when to consider it dissonant or e.g. an imperfect consonance in a harmonic context, but that should not lead to such a big confusion as displayed in this thread.

Know the Kiss sentence? “Keep it simple, stupid”. It is so easy to make a mess out of music theory, so I recommend you stick to the info needed for making the excerises. Make it work before diving into the semantic, theoretical and historical controversies, or you may get lost. Been there myself.

Cheers

[shugs]

thanks....I have next to no music theory background; I was a theoretical mathematician by training and an actuary by occupation. I pretty much am a blank piece of paper being presented with 'stuff', so that I don't really know if I am asking a dumb question or a good question. ( For example, the other day I was asking about augmented 7th chords, not having any idea that they aren't common which everyone else takes for granted)) / For my course , my text and teacher have it that augmented and diminished intervals are dissonant. SO maybe after I get through the introductory theory course I may learn otherwise but for now, for me, they are

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

/ For my course , my text and teacher have it that augmented and diminished intervals are dissonant. SO maybe after I get through the introductory theory course I may learn otherwise but for now, for me, they are

But it makes no sense. I am sure you must have misunderstood something. As said, an augmented major second is a minor third and that is an imperfect consonant. A diminished major third is also a minor third and thus an imperfect consonance. An augmented 5th is a minor sixth and so forth. You should take these examples to your books and teachers and ask again.The whole systems falls apart if you’d stick to your idea since everything would be a dissonant as soon as it arises from dim or augmention.

[shugs]

well, a lot of music theory makes no sense to me. (Theoretical math was so much simpler and internally consistent.). I guess the way I look at it is, say in the key of C. a C to A is a Major 6th but a C to an A sharp is an Augmented 6th and that that interval would sound dissonant since A sharp isn't in the key to start with.

Maybe augnmented and diminished intervals are considered dissonant because you need to go outside the key to get the note and so it will sound 'off' in context of the key being played

[fmr]

well, a lot of music theory makes no sense to me. (Theoretical math was so much simpler and internally consistent.). I guess the way I look at it is, say in the key of C. a C to A is a Major 6th but a C to an A sharp is an Augmented 6th and that that interval would sound dissonant since A sharp isn't in the key to start with.

Maybe augnmented and diminished intervals are considered dissonant because you need to go outside the key to get the note and so it will sound 'off' in context of the key being played

Music Theory makes no sense in abstract. A lot of theory concepts only make sense when in musical contexts, and sometimes they make sense for a certain time, period and style, and don't make sense for others (the "dissonance" concept is a good example of that).

[shugs]

Words of wisdom. Abstract math starts with definitions, and axioms and you build your way up from there with theorems and conjectures (to be proven). People find it very difficult, especially as you leave the realm of reality and are off into pure thought on the logical consequences that have been built up thus far. A times B = 0 doesn't always mean either A or B or both must be 0.

I do find that music theory does lack a certain amount of rigor from time to time which makes it more complicated than it needs to be...or at least the way I am being presented with the information

[Farnaby]

Remember that music theory is descriptive rather than prescriptive, i.e. the music comes first and the theory follows. I would have thought this is the opposite to abstract maths where the theory can precede an application.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Maybe augnmented and diminished intervals are considered dissonant because you need to go outside the key to get the note and so it will sound 'off' in context of the key being played

No, you are wrong, mate. I do not understand why you insist. Ask your teachers again. Ever since the tempered scale, augmentions or dims are understood in half steps and not quarter tones or any other pitch deviants from the half step. Thus an augmented major second = a minor third. It cannot be anything else within our present tonal system. A minor third cannot both be treated as a dissonant and an imperfect consonance. If you allow yourself so violent contradictions when learning the deed, the results will reflect them. I have written above what to consider a dissonant or not, right from the source, Fux’s Gradus. These are not debatable when you refer to strict counterpoint. Period, mate.

[shugs]

Sorry my friend . From my text " Dissonances include the 2nd, 7th and any augmented or diminished interval. " The Musicians Guide to Theory and Analysis, 3rd Edition

and I do agree that an augmented 2nd sounds like a minor 3rd, but my explanation seems logical...you have to go out of the key to create the augmented or diminished interval and that is the reason 'they' say it is dissonant.

If I just play an A2 or a m3, there would be no difference and they both might sound 'pleasing' But if you are playing an entire song, I suspect the A2 won't sound so pleasing as you have gone out of key. But that's just how I rationalize it in my mind