KVR Audio

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:47 pm

Yeah! would never try to tell someone my way is better, Linux is not for everyone nor Windows or Apple. Been experimenting with Linux since about 1998 was always able to make it run just there was not much for audio software compared to Win or Mac. Heck I was sold on BeOS until it vanished into thin air. With my last two installs I have learned Linux has come a long way not only in native software but in WINE and Win VST hosting.

As far as backup is concerned! I have installed so many systems going back to around 1986 (DOS) I would be thrilled to never have to install all my software. So in a way we are both right for our own purpose.

audiojunkie · Post by **audiojunkie** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:46 pm

BONES wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:40 pm
The problem with Linux is that unless you compile your own custom kernel, it can be just as bloated as Windows, possibly moreso, depending on the distro you choose. That AV Linux seems like it might be OK, though. In the end, I think you'll find you're just swapping one set of problems for another, possibly much bigger set.

Good luck!

I'll take this one chance and respond to you, but I'm not willing to play the argument games you like to do. I hate arguing, and I'm simply not going to do it. So you can either take what I tell you or ignore it, but I won't fight with you about it.

1. Things have changed since your time with Linux. What you say about needing to compile a custom kernel no longer is accurate. For that last twenty years, the Real Time patches have been, little by little, mainlined into the generic kernel. There are only 53 patches left, and then the real time kernel will be completely mainlined into the generic kernel--probably by the end of this year. As it is, things run great with the generic kernel. There is now a boot time kernel parameter that you use when configuring GRUB that bypasses the compile-time settings to allow you to configure things as you like--CONFIG_PREEMPT_DYNAMIC. Setting this kernel parameter in GRUB to boot with real time conditions allows the generic kernel to run as a real time kernel. Compiling is no longer necessary. It's much easier! Compiling will allow even more customization, so it's still useful for some people, but the generic kernel that comes in every modern distro is ready for real time, low latency work that everyone can easily use.

2. Back when you used Linux, there were no plugin options available--No VST, no LV2, no CLAP. Using an inter-app connection process of connecting separate programs through the JACK server was the only way to do Linux audio. Session Manager attempts at standards were all over the place in those days. And, JACK and Pulse Audio were two different audio servers running on top of ALSA and they didn't play well together. These problems have been fixed with the creation of Pipewire and the introduction of plugin support to Linux--Linux now supports JACK, LV2, VST, VST3, and now CLAP plugins. With Pipewire, there are no longer any server conflicts, and everything runs as smoothly in Linux as a Windows user would expect in a Windows environment. Basically, install your host program, install your plugins, and use them just like you would with Windows.

3. Development with the WINE compatibility layer has had 20 years to improve and mature. Development of a robust and easy to use Windows to Linux plugin bridge software (yabridge) now exists where there was no bridge at all in the past. Most Windows plugins that don't use OS invasive copy protection like ILOK, PACE, or dongles simply works in Linux with no problem. These things didn't exist when you last used Linux.

4. Commercial developers are starting to support Linux. High quality well respected "native Linux" plugins are starting to appear: ie Zebra, Diva, Tal-Sampler, etc. None of that existed when you last used Linux. The same goes for DAW software, with Traktion, Reaper, and Bitwig.

5. Linux as an OS itself has gotten easier. A Windows user would find that there is a GUI based analog for almost every tool that you use the command line for. The command line is there, and it's still used, but it is not absolutely required nearly as much as when you used it last.

6. In addition to all of the improvements mentioned above, Linux has still remained incredibly flexible and customizable. You've got over 30 Desktop Environments and Windows managers to choose from, so everyone can have the exact desktop experience they prefer. Linux can be completely stripped of the bloat and run incredibly efficiently, or it can be as full featured as you want it to be.

Linux these days is not the Linux you remember and judged back when you used it last. It's better, faster, and easier. And yes, I do know what a Windows Manager is, even though you tried to bait me last time by suggesting that I don't.

glokraw · Post by **glokraw** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:06 pm

Bones is a professional, with a nice collection of hardware, and a long established/evolving workflow, that poses few or no problems, so among the
least likely to consider our beloved linux alternatives. His posts have a lot of good content and some great humour over the years. My reclusiveness was challenged
several times, and now I even know that Roli Seaboard isn't a coastal tourist town
where the buskers hang out.

I love the current modern ease of setting up a functioning software studio
from a dvd/usb, that blends linux and windows plugins, without a horribly steap
learning curve

And should I stumble upon a decent bsd-mac at a no-brainer garage sale price
(I've heard they do make a good foot-warmer in winter) I'll at least be at home with
parts of the filesystem and command capability. The former husband of billionairess Melinda Gates is probably secretly hacking away as we speak

...

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:27 am

audiojunkie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:46 pmSo you can either take what I tell you or ignore it, but I won't fight with you about it.

I'll only argue if your comment isn't factually correct or if it varies wildly from my own experience. If youdon't have the courage of yru convictions and don't want to back up what you have to say, that's entirely your right.

1. Things have changed since your time with Linux. What you say about needing to compile a custom kernel no longer is accurate. For that last twenty years, the Real Time patches have been, little by little, mainlined into the generic kernel.

The reason you compile your own kernel is to get rid of a heap of legacy junk that normally gets installed with any generic distro. If you don't you end up with a kernel that's just as bloated as Windows. But if you get something like AV Linux, then someone has already done that custom kernel work for you, which is really handy. That definitely wasn't something you could get when I was using Linux.

As it is, things run great with the generic kernel.

That, of course, is also true of Windows, mostly because computers are so much more powerful these days that all those obsessive tweaks we used to diligently make on every new install hardly make any difference any more.

2. Back when you used Linux, there were no plugin options available--No VST, no LV2, no CLAP.

I never, ever even thought about using Linux for music, it was strictly for work-related things - 2D and 3D motion graphics and VFX work. Interestingly, it's still really shit for that because all the applications that will run on it cost several to many thousands of dollars, except for Blender.

everything runs as smoothly in Linux as a Windows user would expect in a Windows environment. Basically, install your host program, install your plugins, and use them just like you would with Windows.

Those that you can install. And this is where the question arises - why bother? If all you are getting is the same experience, not a better one, why restrict yourself so heavily to an OS with hardly any application support? It's pretty much the same argument I have against using Mac, only at least Linux doesn't make you pay through the nose for a lesser experience. Linux and macOS require that you choose your OS first, then find shit to run on them. To me that's arse-backwards. I choose the applications I want/need to run and that informs my choice of OS. Surely that's the only sensible way to make these decisions? Or am I missing something?

4. Commercial developers are starting to support Linux. High quality well respected "native Linux" plugins are starting to appear: ie Zebra, Diva, Tal-Sampler, etc. None of that existed when you last used Linux.

No, but some professional software applications that used to have Linux versions no longer do, like CorelDRAW. Commercial interest seems to wax and wane with Linux. I'm not about to use one OS for my work and another for music, that makes no sense at all. And, for the record, I don't use any of those plugins and none that I do use have Linux versions, AFAIK. I've also had no success with bridging in Windows so it's not something I'd want to try elsewhere, either.

5. Linux as an OS itself has gotten easier. A Windows user would find that there is a GUI based analog for almost every tool that you use the command line for.

That was always the case, even 25 years ago. In fact, if anything, there was more choice back then but there has been a lot of consolidation since then.

6. In addition to all of the improvements mentioned above, Linux has still remained incredibly flexible and customizable. You've got over 30 Desktop Environments and Windows managers to choose from, so everyone can have the exact desktop experience they prefer.

I used to use a window manager called Windowmaker but it's been stalled at version 0.7x for 20 years now.

Linux these days is not the Linux you remember and judged back when you used it last.

Actually, it mostly is. It still doesn't let me run any of the applications I use for work every day, except Blender, my DAW of choice won't run on it, either, and there is no compelling argument to switch to one that will. So just like 20+ years ago, you have to really want to use Linux to be bothered using Linux. 20+ years ago I really didn't want to be using Windows so I gave it a red-hot go but since Windows moved to the NT kernel, I've actually grown to quite like it so I no longer have even the slightest motivation to consider anything else, especially if I can't run all my applications with the high level of reliability I am used to.

The other thing is that, as a laptop user, it is far more likely I'd have problems with things like drivers for bespoke laptop components, like the second screen in my Zenbook Duo. It's taken Asus two generations to get it to work properly on Windows, I can't imagine what it might take on Linux. When I got a new Dell M90 laptop at work, in about 2006, it took the IT dept, who were all Linux trained guys who supported RedHat for hundreds of customers, about a week to get my graphics card working with Linux. That's one area I imagine has improved out of sight in the last 10-15 years but the laptop I have now also has a very unusual graphics card, an MX450, that I wouldn't put much faith in Linux to support.

In the end, I see a lot of risks and no reward. Just saying you can make it work if you want to doesn't answer the question of why anyone would want to when there are much better alternatives. So don't argue the minutiae, just answer that one, simple question - why bother?

audiojunkie · Post by **audiojunkie** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:43 am

Like I said, I’m not going to argue or try to convince you of anything. I just wanted to point out that things have gotten much better for linux than when you used it last.

Oh, and by the way, Windowmaker was never abandoned. The source of most recent stable version is 0.95.9, released on 04.04.2020. They’ve been releasing improvements to that window manager every couple of years or so—the whole entire past 20 years.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:57 am

I know, I still keep an eye on it but it's been 25 years now and it still isn't at Version 1.0 and most of the things I liked about it are irrelevant today, like a CD player widget on your desktop. I still like the way it looks, though, and the tile idea is basically really good, but Microsoft have been dong it better for a while now. While Windowmaker has gone from v0.7x to 0.9x, Windows has gone from being a DOS-based OS, through seven iterations of the NT kernel. So whilst it's true that Linux has improved a lot, so had Windows, to the point that I can't think of a single reason not to keep using it. One day that might change but today ain't that day.

glokraw · Post by **glokraw** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:45 am

You are correct in defining some key limitations of linux, with regard to existing producers/players on win-mac systems: the daw(s) of choice
on those platforms are entrenched, powerful, and popular. In linux, it's just Bitwig, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus, Renoise, and the free Carla, Qtractor, and Ardour.

The audio interface selection, is even more a fundamental hurdle,
and the higher the spec, the less likely the chance of full compatibilty, or successful loading of related editors/utilities via wine. Focus-Rite are probably the best supported choice commonly in shops.

Keeping those two scenarios in mind, there is still a huge need for inexpensive but functional systems for creative people who are just starting out, with no allegences or OS loyalties, who can afford to take advantage of the linux progress at hand.

There is an html version of the Cardinal modular synth, a spinoff from the vcv-rack modular project, mainly sans some licensing restrictions. It starts in a browser, with a session loaded and playing, if you click the link. Could be a fun travel or commuter companion:

https://cardinal.kx.studio/

A Cardinal disscussion is ongoing at:

viewtopic.php?t=576374

Cardinal-Synth-in-firefox.jpg

Windowmaker was a favorite of mine, today, the most similar experience might be the Moksha desktop, derived from Enlightenment and the default setup in Bodhi linux, a well established barebones distro. You might know someone low on $cash$ with an older computer, who would love having a go at music creation using Surge, Vital, Dexed, Yoshimi, Guitarix, and Hydrogen in a Reaper demo...

Cheers

margaret0547 · Post by **margaret0547** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:59 pm

glokraw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:34 am Hi, go here:

https://www.winehq.org/

...but first, use your package manager to fully uninstall the existing wine,
and rename your .wine folder, so wine-staging has a fresh start.

Click the Download button on the right of the wineHQ page...

Hi glokraw.
I followed this procedure and it worked fine. I've tried running windows Reaper under wine-staging. Now it recognizes the external audio device. Also a couple of plugins with GUI issues are now fixed. Next yabridge. Thanks.

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:18 pm

Bones, you are spot on with "why bother" if the OS dictates the host\software used, was the reason I had not made a change before. But for some of us the tables turned in that the host that is used now offers Linux native support. TBH if Reaper did not support Linux I would have never made a change to a different OS or even tried for that matter. And yet again if the many WinVST plugins I use were not able to be brought over I would not have changed.

I suppose it also depends on what you are using this all for? If I was an electronic musician I would most likely not have switched. I use primarily acoustic instruments with the exception of synths. Other then that the host is a tape deck and mixing board w\FX. So again am I right are you right only the person themselves can say if that is true.

margaret0547 · Post by **margaret0547** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:40 pm

glokraw wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:23 pm Lucky for me, it's not rocket science

@ classic this will help with yabridge plugin wrapper, and no rocket-science,
except tons of that implemented by the coder!

https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge...

Thanks for this, glokraw. I just followed this procedure and it worked great. I've now got a linux native DAW running windows native plugins!

glokraw · Post by **glokraw** » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:13 pm

Congrats for perseverance! Robert is one of the great examples of coding excellence followed by great support.

There's an app called timemachine, a simple jackd one-button recorder that saves recordings in 24 bit .w64 format. You can use that to record output from audacity, that is played back slower or faster, at your bidding,
and via qjackctl or other patchbay, you can route the audio to rakarrack multi-effects, or to Reaper daw with it's own effects chain etc, set all the various volumes, and record the lot.

If audacity drops it's connections each time playback stops, you can paste 10 or 15 seconds of silence at the beginning of the track, so you have time to connect things before the music begins, and trim it off later during your edits.

If you record something nice in the upper registers, you can try playing it back slower in audacity, maybe 70% speed, and in the newly created space between 'beats' or notes, you can copy-paste the audio on new tracks, pasting it between beats on rythym or syncopated, and adjust the volumes of each new track. They may be in a rich mid-range now, so play them back and find your optimum speed and levels for re-recording, and finally, load the results in audacity, and export as .wav, mp3, or flac etc
Cheers

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:50 am

BONES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:27 am I choose the applications I want/need to run and that informs my choice of OS. Surely that's the only sensible way to make these decisions? Or am I missing something?

I did the same and its exactly the reason why I am on MacOS. Back then Max/MSP was Mac only. As simple as that. I know my OS and never bothered to change and get all I need. I looked at both, Win and Linux and it was all way too complicated. Just reading what to do to get it run smoothly gave me headaches… Why bother…
I am actually glad not to be on Windows, too much choice, its easier to skip all those half baked synthedit windows only creations…
That might be an argument to look at Linux again - less choice...
As my main DAW is Bitwig and Apple politics are not something I would like so much to support. But switching from Max to Pd would be a too big loss… I don’t see Ableton/Cycling74 supporting Linux in the near future…
And the new M2 machines are tempting. More power and no fan…

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:48 am

"Too much choice"? Only a Mac user or a lifer in prison could come up with a doozy like that.

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:49 am

BONES wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:48 am "Too much choice"? Only a Mac user or a lifer in prison could come up with a doozy like that.

LOL! You got there before me!

"Too much choice" !

glokraw · Post by **glokraw** » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:39 pm

Out of curiosity, I checked the properties on my Program Files/VstPlugins, Steinberg/VstPlugins, folders, the linux U-he folder, and users/Public/Documents,
over 300,000- files. Most are presets and samples, and a lot of older things I use have
.fxb banks of 128 each that further bloats the sounds tally. So the main choice I face, is avoiding Ice Cream, butter, mayonaise and the /beef/pork/chicken fat off the bar-B, so I can live long enough to tap in to over 100,000 little sonic gizmos.

Realizing a great musician in a very spartan setup, will still shine brightly.

Changing to Linux for music making