Building a "Waves MaxxBass" Clone with MXXX possible?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2098 posts since 22 Sep, 2016
As the subject says - Can a MaxxBass Clone be built with MXXX?
As far as I understood the theorie, it treats the incoming fundamental frequency as if it was actually the 2nd in the harmonic row, i.e. adding frequencies by factor 1.5, 2, 2.5, ... if you multiply these by 2 it would be the normal harmonic series, but we want to fool the ear a bit ...by using the factors mentioned above...Then the effect is that the brain adds the 1st fundamental which is then actually an octave lower then the incoming frequency...
But this is only as far as I understood...
Any experts here that say this can be done and how?
As far as I understood the theorie, it treats the incoming fundamental frequency as if it was actually the 2nd in the harmonic row, i.e. adding frequencies by factor 1.5, 2, 2.5, ... if you multiply these by 2 it would be the normal harmonic series, but we want to fool the ear a bit ...by using the factors mentioned above...Then the effect is that the brain adds the 1st fundamental which is then actually an octave lower then the incoming frequency...
But this is only as far as I understood...
Any experts here that say this can be done and how?
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
I am really interested in this!
You have the correct understanding of how it works (in my opinion). I studied it for a little while myself.
I would absolutely love this feature to be added to MBassador. Maybe it could be named "Fake bass" or something like that.
As far as making it in MXXX, let's discuss how this could be possible. My first thought is, using MCharacter, where we can change the level of the harmonics. However I'm pretty sure Waves does not achieve this using spectral processing. I think it is just saturation. But how to get saturation to only create certain harmonics, I do not know. I remember having an attempt at making it, a while back, but to no joy.
I think it might be something Vojtech can help/explain.....hopefully add to MBassador
You have the correct understanding of how it works (in my opinion). I studied it for a little while myself.
I would absolutely love this feature to be added to MBassador. Maybe it could be named "Fake bass" or something like that.
As far as making it in MXXX, let's discuss how this could be possible. My first thought is, using MCharacter, where we can change the level of the harmonics. However I'm pretty sure Waves does not achieve this using spectral processing. I think it is just saturation. But how to get saturation to only create certain harmonics, I do not know. I remember having an attempt at making it, a while back, but to no joy.
I think it might be something Vojtech can help/explain.....hopefully add to MBassador
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
-
MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122
- KVRAF
- 14019 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Hehe that's what MBassador does (besides other stuff). Just use the Sub and saturate it.
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
I love MBassador, it sounds really great. But it does not do the MaxxBass trick. MBassador synthesises an actual sub, MaxxBass does not. It instead creates only the certain upper harmonics to trick the brain into believing it can hear a sub. But it's not actually there.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
-
MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122
- KVRAF
- 14019 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
What it most likely does is create the sub, saturate it to get the harmonics and then filter out the sub. I'm not sure why you would filter out the sub though
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
Hmm, good point. I will test this, thanks.
Previously I was unable to get a perception of bass out of laptop speakers when using MBassador, however with MaxxBass, I could.
BUT, to be fair I was mostly trying to saturate the bass, not the sub. I'll give it a go.
MBassador in every other aspect is amazing though! It just makes bass sound fuller.
I like to use a level follower on the wet level to tighten up the added bass, it adds so much punch without adding too much boom, if that makes sense haha.
Previously I was unable to get a perception of bass out of laptop speakers when using MBassador, however with MaxxBass, I could.
BUT, to be fair I was mostly trying to saturate the bass, not the sub. I'll give it a go.
MBassador in every other aspect is amazing though! It just makes bass sound fuller.
I like to use a level follower on the wet level to tighten up the added bass, it adds so much punch without adding too much boom, if that makes sense haha.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
- KVRist
- 488 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from Earth
This is what this Organ Pipe trick is all about. To create the illusion of a lower fundamental despite the playback medium can´t reproduce this wavelenght. Even in a Monitor Speaker that doesn´t struggle with producing this wavelenght (opposed to earbuds or laptop-speaker) there are reasons you may filter it out. When I play e.g. an E1 at 41Hz the Sub is at 20.5Hz, and on my Master I almost always roll off at 20-30Hz (I guess everybody does). So I loose a lot of this bass after all the production steps (and the rolloff in the Clubsystem). So why not calculate this Headroom into the production, than loosing it on the way to the listeners ear.MeldaProduction wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:12 pm I'm not sure why you would filter out the sub though
Edit: It would be a cool feature in the Plugin to have the option if the Sub could Null itself out. So after saturating the signal of the Sub it would add a phase-inverted Sub signal without saturation so only the upper harmonics remain.
Last edited by operator on Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Everyone knows more than I do...
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
If a small speaker can not produce the low frequencies of the sub, then why do we need to filter it out?
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
- KVRist
- 488 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from Earth
At first, I´m not only suggesting the feature just because of the small speakers. I just don´t want to waste headroom with frequencies no one will ever hear (or get lost in the processing chain). This not only affects decent speakers, but small as well, so this is the reason one wants to filter them out. For this audible Organ-Pipe-effect the Fundamental isn´t needed, so why include it? The Brain calculates a Fundamental anyway...
But I think it would just be a nice option in the Plugin to be able to cancel the (Sub)Fundamental Frequency with a clean process out. (phase-invert) Not sure if the Wet-Filter is LinearPhase when enabling the LinearPhase Crossover.
And another reason might be: I´m not sure on that one but just because a speaker can´t reproduce a certain frequency doesn´t mean it always doesn´t try to do it anyway.
Last edited by operator on Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everyone knows more than I do...
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
Not sure either, I'm scratching my head.
But either way, I agree that the null switch would be a welcome addition.
Still, though I am not sure if the saturation is actually generating the same harmonics as MaxxBass. I guess we could check this with a sine wave and analyser? But so far I have not really managed to copy the effect where it tricks your brain into hearing something that is not there. I will keep trying with this one.
In the end, if the harmonics generated in MaxxBass are different to what is generated in MBassador then a new "Fake Bass" panel would be welcome in MBassador, it would basically already have the sub removed by default only generating the correct harmonics to create the psychoacoustic trick.
But either way, I agree that the null switch would be a welcome addition.
Still, though I am not sure if the saturation is actually generating the same harmonics as MaxxBass. I guess we could check this with a sine wave and analyser? But so far I have not really managed to copy the effect where it tricks your brain into hearing something that is not there. I will keep trying with this one.
In the end, if the harmonics generated in MaxxBass are different to what is generated in MBassador then a new "Fake Bass" panel would be welcome in MBassador, it would basically already have the sub removed by default only generating the correct harmonics to create the psychoacoustic trick.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
- KVRist
- 488 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from Earth
100% Agree, maybe if Vojtech finds some spare Dev-time he might be kind enough to look into that and maybe introduces a "Null-Out-Option" ... I don´t own MaxxBass unfortunatly, otherwise I would have already taken it apart. But if you come up with a result, i wouldn´t mind hearing about it.jmg8 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:23 pm In the end, if the harmonics generated in MaxxBass are different to what is generated in MBassador then a new "Fake Bass" panel would be welcome in MBassador, it would basically already have the sub removed by default only generating the correct harmonics to create the psychoacoustic trick.
Everyone knows more than I do...
-
- KVRAF
- 2596 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
I will look into it and report back. But you could download the demo to test it. After all, two heads would be better than one and my time is very limited at the moment, so not sure how fast I will be.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.
- KVRist
- 488 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from Earth
To be honest, I´m not the biggest fan of installing junk-ware on my system. But I will look into that, maybe in the evening I´ll install it an give it a try.
Everyone knows more than I do...
- KVRist
- 488 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from Earth
Ohh brother could I sing you a song about that. BBUUUTT, it´s sunday and we´re both here, so I asume in this moment right now we have the same amount of time.
Everyone knows more than I do...